Lindsey Pushing For More Corner 3's

[franklin]

Lindsey seems pretty confident the Jazz should do what the Spurs did, or at least try.

Adding a corner three is as easy as adjusting down baseline 5-10 feet, and occasionally sneaking back door all the way across the court.

Problem Ty had with the corner three last season is you have to be able to drive and dish to get it open. You have to force your opponent to sag off it because your driver or p&r guy is too much of a scoring threat. Having a Duncan and a Parker opens up these kinds of things... everyone acts like it's the system doing it. Not at all.

Game 6 of the Heat v Spurs series is a perfect demonstration on how modern offenses work. Both teams pretty much freelance the p&r to death until it no longer works. On Miami's side, there are one or two of those old plays thrown in for Ray Allen to catch-n-jack, a little bit of Bosh high post but he's mostly there to p&r or double HORNS screen for LeBron. The rest is entirely left side isolation for LeBron and Wade to drive and dish (to the corner three).

On the Spurs' side, it's almost entirely pick and roll and low post. They throw in a few options along the way but really never get much out of them and reset to either low post or p&r nearly every time. It's the same stuff Corbin ran last year only replacing the top p&r (since Mo was incompetent) with a triangle right-side p&r.

Can someone tell me who's going to be making those LeBron and Tony Parker corner three passes? (nah, Fire Ty Corbin ggrrrrrrbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbberrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)

I am confident because, in an interview, Lindsey was very candid about Corbin being evaluated based on his ability to install a defensive system.

I heard, "I want to see that a Ty can understand the intricacies of an elite defense, grasp the magnitude of its importance, and be able to get the players to buy into it 100%."

'Bout damn time this becomes the focus. Every head coach in the NBA can run an offense. Where guys like Popovich excel is going big picture by adding complimentary pieces for cheap. That's not Ty's job and we've generally given the FO credit for going out and getting pieces that theoretically work, even if it's turn out miserable as **** (NUMBERICA 4 GM).

It's the defense that makes the difference between #1 and the runner up, but we're not at that level so it's kind of moot anyway.

 

[franklin]

If Al had played defense like Favors, I'm sure we wouldn't have killed him for his offensive inefficiency. But when the offense is the only thing he contributes, he'd better be efficient at it!!

Pishposh.

Great post defenders are almost always horrible court defenders. It takes a big, slow body to guard the post. Remember how bad Shaq was at p&r defense? Omer Asik? Guys like Howard and Duncan are the exceptions to the rule in guarding both. (BTW, Duncan is now a horrific p&r defender, way worse than Jefferson. Spurs are done and going to hurt until Ginobili's new monstrosity of a contract is up )

Favors is a pretty bad post defender and makes the same mistakes that Jefferson did in p&r D. Both guys loved to set a screen on their own teammate. Irritating as hell. Favors was about as good a defender as Millsap was last season. But he gets blocks at an above average clip and we act like that's all that matters.

 

[zman1527]

Adding a corner three is as easy as adjusting down baseline 5-10 feet, and occasionally sneaking back door all the way across the court.

Problem Ty had with the corner three last season is you have to be able to drive and dish to get it open. You have to force your opponent to sag off it because your driver or p&r guy is too much of a scoring threat. Having a Duncan and a Parker opens up these kinds of things... everyone acts like it's the system doing it. Not at all.

Game 6 of the Heat v Spurs series is a perfect demonstration on how modern offenses work. Both teams pretty much freelance the p&r to death until it no longer works. On Miami's side, there are one or two of those old plays thrown in for Ray Allen to catch-n-jack, a little bit of Bosh high post but he's mostly there to p&r or double HORNS screen for LeBron. The rest is entirely left side isolation for LeBron and Wade to drive and dish (to the corner three).

On the Spurs' side, it's almost entirely pick and roll and low post. They throw in a few options along the way but really never get much out of them and reset to either low post or p&r nearly every time. It's the same stuff Corbin ran last year only replacing the top p&r (since Mo was incompetent) with a triangle right-side p&r.

Can someone tell me who's going to be making those LeBron and Tony Parker corner three passes? (nah, Fire Ty Corbin ggrrrrrrbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbberrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)





'Bout damn time this becomes the focus. Every head coach in the NBA can run an offense. Where guys like Popovich excel is going big picture by adding complimentary pieces for cheap. That's not Ty's job and we've generally given the FO credit for going out and getting pieces that theoretically work, even if it's turn out miserable as **** (NUMBERICA 4 GM).

It's the defense that makes the difference between #1 and the runner up, but we're not at that level so it's kind of moot anyway.

If Ty is so brilliant and the corner 3 so obvious, why does the GM have to make it a point of emphasis? Because Ty learned all the knows from Ole Jer, and Ole Jer hates the 3 ball.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Why does anyone here think that Ty Corbin can coach?

While all the results demonstrate that he has no clue what the hell he's doing. There were even reports that Jeff Hornacek couldn't stand him.

I think being a fan leads people to always believe that their "franchise" knows best. In reality, they are prone to the same mistakes that we typically clearly see from afar. I remember when Kidd was first signed and this board exploded in criticism. I'm sure most Nets fans think that their franchise is the smartest ever. Signing a HOF PG to be their new HC.

Just because you were a decent player in the NBA doesn't mean that you can coach worth a lick. In all the interviews I've seen, everything I've read, all I've heard, and the results produced on the court, Ty Corbin is not a HC in the NBA. He might be a good ball boy or assistant coach. But he doesn't have the leadership, the vision, or the brains, to be a successful NBA Head Coach.

You either have it or ya don't.

 

[Tom Pitt]

Why does anyone here think that Ty Corbin can coach?

While all the results demonstrate that he has no clue what the hell he's doing. There were even reports that Jeff Hornacek couldn't stand him.

I think being a fan leads people to always believe that their "franchise" knows best. In reality, they are prone to the same mistakes that we typically clearly see from afar. I remember when Kidd was first signed and this board exploded in criticism. I'm sure most Nets fans think that their franchise is the smartest ever. Signing a HOF PG to be their new HC.

Just because you were a decent player in the NBA doesn't mean that you can coach worth a lick. In all the interviews I've seen, everything I've read, all I've heard, and the results produced on the court, Ty Corbin is not a HC in the NBA. He might be a good ball boy or assistant coach. But he doesn't have the leadership, the vision, or the brains, to be a successful NBA Head Coach.

You either have it or ya don't.

It's unfortunate, but your right for the most part.

 

[franklin]

If Ty is so brilliant and the corner 3 so obvious, why does the GM have to make it a point of emphasis? Because Ty learned all the knows from Ole Jer, and Ole Jer hates the 3 ball.

The corner 3 is so obvious? I don't know what that means..


The Jazz hired Lindsey for his analytical talents. It's his job to instruct the organization on what is and is not statistically working these days. You're making something out of nothing by claiming a guy doing his job is something more.


I also don't follow your logic on Sloan hating threes, and how that somehow translates into Corbin's style like he's Sloan's puppet or something... are you saying Corbin is Sloan 2.0? Gimme dat!

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

If Ty is so brilliant and the corner 3 so obvious, why does the GM have to make it a point of emphasis? Because Ty learned all the knows from Ole Jer, and Ole Jer hates the 3 ball.

Dude.... did you actually read that post?

 

[Stifle Tower]

Yup, and this thread about proves it. Shouldn't the HC be good enough to realize the value of the corner 3 and not have to be told by the GM? I think so, but then I expect a lot out of a guy who is supposed to be at the highest level and gets paid millions to be there.

Well, he was tutored by a coach who taught that the 3-pointer was such a low-percentage shot that it should be eschewed on offense like the plague and left unchallenged on the other end.

As much as I have been a critic of Corbin, I'm also willing to acknowledge he's largely been a puppet. For a couple of years we've seen certain veterans showcased leading up to the deadline, despite no deals taking place. The organization has always set a goal of making the playoffs as a measuring stick for success, so there's a natural bias in going with vets who probably are better at the beginning of the season vs. developing the young players by giving them a lot of game minutes and sacrificing some wins early. I also think there was genuine uncertainty or even disagreement on whether or not to keep players like Jefferson, Millsap, Foye and Mo. have to keep them happy if you MIGHT decide to re-sign any of them.

Let's see what Ty can do with no pressure on him for wins and losses, with the evaluation largely being on one thing: his ability to install an effective defense. Lindsey is really going about this the right way. Try to accomplish too much and you likely won't accomplish anything. So break it into two phases: concentrate on defense this season, with a very simplified offense. Next year, expand the offense.

 

[Stoked]

Well, he was tutored by a coach who taught that the 3-pointer was such a low-percentage shot that it should be eschewed on offense like the plague and left unchallenged on the other end.

As much as I have been a critic of Corbin, I'm also willing to acknowledge he's largely been a puppet. For a couple of years we've seen certain veterans showcased leading up to the deadline, despite no deals taking place. The organization has always set a goal of making the playoffs as a measuring stick for success, so there's a natural bias in going with vets who probably are better at the beginning of the season vs. developing the young players by giving them a lot of game minutes and sacrificing some wins early. I also think there was genuine uncertainty or even disagreement on whether or not to keep players like Jefferson, Millsap, Foye and Mo. have to keep them happy if you MIGHT decide to re-sign any of them.

Let's see what Ty can do with no pressure on him for wins and losses, with the evaluation largely being on one thing: his ability to install an effective defense. Lindsey is really going about this the right way. Try to accomplish too much and you likely won't accomplish anything. So break it into two phases: concentrate on defense this season, with a very simplified offense. Next year, expand the offense.

I'm on board with that.

 

[bjunior]

Why does anyone here think that Ty Corbin can coach?

hahaahaahhaaa ))

i love this board

 

[franklin]

Well, he was tutored by a coach who taught that the 3-pointer was such a low-percentage shot that it should be eschewed on offense like the plague and left unchallenged on the other end.

Link?


If what you say is true then why were Sloan's teams consistently at the top of the league in SRS and always top defensively? If the corner three is gold and stupid Sloan never bothered to guard it then shouldn't the numbers not contradict this? Your opinion is self-defeating.

 

[franklin]

As much as I have been a critic of Corbin, I'm also willing to acknowledge he's largely been a puppet. For a couple of years
Let's see what Ty can do with no pressure on him for wins and losses, with the evaluation largely being on one thing: his ability to install an effective defense. Lindsey is really going about this the right way. Try to accomplish too much and you likely won't accomplish anything. So break it into two phases: concentrate on defense this season, with a very simplified offense. Next year, expand the offense.

What plays are you recommending?

Corbin ran as complex an offense as any team last year. They actually ran more stuff when the youngins were in because they weren't good enough to run iso or p&r with success, so they reverted back to the old set plays to score. They know the offense already.

The system is clearly in: Low post dominant featuring Enes Kanter and some flex, side p&r, add a point for top p&r, some double high post with cutting action from the wings, and hopefully more high-low.

 

[NUMBERICA]

The corner 3 is so obvious? I don't know what that means..


The Jazz hired Lindsey for his analytical talents. It's his job to instruct the organization on what is and is not statistically working these days. You're making something out of nothing by claiming a guy doing his job is something more.


I also don't follow your logic on Sloan hating threes, and how that somehow translates into Corbin's style like he's Sloan's puppet or something... are you saying Corbin is Sloan 2.0? Gimme dat!

I think he might be saying that Corbin wishes he was Sloan 2.0 and that's a far cry from Jerry Sloan who wasn't going to get it done anyway.

 

[Stifle Tower]

franklin...
Jazz have consistently been among the league leaders in FEWEST 3 pt attempts. Last season, they attempted 16.9 per game. Only Chicago and Memphis attempted fewer. The year before was 12.7 with only New Orleans worse. Going back every year to 2003-04, the Jazz have never been higher than 22nd and are generally around 26th. Despite the few attempts, the Jazz have generally ranked several spaces higher in terms of team 3-pt %, sometimes even in the middle of the league.

Not factoring in "long rebounds," which was always Sloan's reason for hating the 3, we know that 33% on 3's is equivalent to hitting 50% on 2-pt FG's. Over the same time period, when comparing 2-pt and 3-pt %'s, the Jazz would have - in their WORST seasons - been equal if they had attempted more 3's (i.e at 32% on 3's, but also not at 50% on 2's, so a wash). In most years, the overall percentages suggest had they had attempted more 3's, scoring would have increased. I'd also contend that if the Jazz had been more of a threat from 3-pt range, it would have opened up the inside game even more.

The Jazz have really underutilized 3-pt shooting, despite having some decent shooters. I'm not saying Utah should league the league in attempts. Just up the number by 3-4 more per game into the range of league average. I think the "long rebound" threat is overstated, especially if the 3's are coming from the corners instead of straight-away.

 

[Stifle Tower]

I think he might be saying that Corbin wishes he was Sloan 2.0 and that's a far cry from Jerry Sloan who wasn't going to get it done anyway.

I'm suggesting the same criticisms we had of Sloan, we see exhibited in Corbin (and Ty isn't nearly as good on the basics as Jerry was). Ty hasn't shown any innovation on defense or offense, largely relying on Sloan's antiquated philosophies which died when players started increasing their shooting range and the league took away the ability to get tough and bump players around on defense.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Anyone who claims that the jazz hated shooting 3s obviously ignored the Money Memo era.

Don't mistake having a 2-3 (brewer and AK) who didn't have range as somehow a part of Jerry's philosophy. Jerry believed in execution and moving the ball around for an open shot. Whether that was Memo for a 3 or Brewer for a backside cut along the baseline.

In regards to Corbin's philosophy, I still have yet to see one. Our offense and defense had absolutely no identity or noticeable strategy. When we weren't relying on the other team turning the ball over and leading Hayward to fast breaks, we literally had no offense to speak of. It was one of the most frustrating things to watch over the past few years. Watch a Jazz team with no offense whatsoever. Just 5 guys standing around and chucking contested jumpers. I've seen ward basketball teams with more movement and better execution.

 

[candrew]

The Jazz have really underutilized 3-pt shooting, despite having some decent shooters. I'm not saying Utah should league the league in attempts. Just up the number by 3-4 more per game into the range of league average. I think the "long rebound" threat is overstated, especially if the 3's are coming from the corners instead of straight-away.

The argument against the corner 3 has not so much been the long rebound but the transition baskets by the defending team off a shot attempt. If you have a player shooting from the corner he's not in position to defend the next possession - even in the case of a make.

While I'm not sure I agree with this argument 100% I think the one thing we can all agree on is The Jazz get caught napping on transition baskets way too much - especially for a team that isn't known for a run and gun offense like GSW or Houston. While I'd love to pin this on Corbin, this was happening way too much towards the end of the Jerry Sloan era as well. That problem should probably be addressed way before we start worrying about taking more 3's.

 

[Dr. Jones]

The argument against the corner 3 has not so much been the long rebound but the transition baskets by the defending team off a shot attempt. If you have a player shooting from the corner he's not in position to defend the next possession - even in the case of a make.

While I'm not sure I agree with this argument 100% I think the one thing we can all agree on is The Jazz get caught napping on transition baskets way too much - especially for a team that isn't known for a run and gun offense like GSW or Houston. While I'd love to pin this on Corbin, this was happening way too much towards the end of the Jerry Sloan era as well. That problem should probably be addressed way before we start worrying about taking more 3's.

Yes. Things like transition defense, rebounding, etc is more about effort than some other facets of the game.
If I am to judge Corbin on one thing above all else, it's how hard are the players playing and how much they have bought into what he's telling them to do.
They can miss shots, they can lose games, but if the hustle and the heart isn't there.. it's squarely on him, imo.

 

[Stifle Tower]

The argument against the corner 3 has not so much been the long rebound but the transition baskets by the defending team off a shot attempt. If you have a player shooting from the corner he's not in position to defend the next possession - even in the case of a make.

While I'm not sure I agree with this argument 100% I think the one thing we can all agree on is The Jazz get caught napping on transition baskets way too much - especially for a team that isn't known for a run and gun offense like GSW or Houston. While I'd love to pin this on Corbin, this was happening way too much towards the end of the Jerry Sloan era as well. That problem should probably be addressed way before we start worrying about taking more 3's.

That's a player problem. With almost any shot, the defender is going to be in roughly the same area as the shooter. The Jazz have traditionally asked their guards to get back on defense instead of pushing hard for offensive rebounds. Transition baskets can occur on every missed shot, whether it be 3, a long two, or even an inside basket.

Basically my argument is that the Jazz have always under utilized 3's in comparison to the rest of the league. Even in the Memo and Korver eras, the Jazz were near the bottom of the league in attempts (26th or so in attempts/game). They shot in the high 30's in 3-pt % and were still less than 50% on their 2's.

I guess the real argument is that unless you can pound it inside for a high-percentage shot, you are far better off passing it out for that 22-24' 3-pt shot than taking a 20-foot jumper that has just a slightly higher chance of going in, about the same risk of creating a transition basket on the other end and results in 33% fewer points when made.

 

[Dr. Jones]

The biggest thing about utilizing 3's is simply spreading the defense. Even if your percentage were to go down taking more, the scouting report is you have to get out on the shooters. I hate watching teams pack the paint (even more than customary) because a team is known to not shoot a high number of 3's.