Nets lock down stadium

[Al-O-Meter]

So, should the employer violate city ordinances? Because of the union contract?

That is an excellent point. No, I'd probably do exactly what the Nets are doing. As both the team owner and the building owner, the city ordinances have forced their hand.

 

[fishonjazz]

Just so that I'm clear in your two statements, you are saying that if you ran the Nets and the NBA, you would not be imposing any vaccine mandates.

If you were an employee at a company that issued a vaccine requirement and provide proof of vaccination, you would do so. Would it matter if the employer was a union shop, you did have a collective bargaining agreement in force that did not include any provision for disclosing your medical history, and the employer unilaterally changed the deal without any agreement from the union?

Correct to your first question and I don't know what you are asking in your second response but I would get vaccinated cause I'm not an idiot who thinks the earth is flat.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I don't know what you are asking in your second response but I would get vaccinated cause I'm not an idiot who thinks the earth is flat.

I'm not asking about your getting vaccinated. I'm asking about your employer having the power to demand you produce and surrender personal information when you had a contract with that employer that did not include any such privilege for the employer.

I'm not asking how you feel about the vaccine. I too am extremely pro-vaccine and will soon be getting my booster. I'm more interested in how you view the power of a contract, when you are party to that contract, and the other party unilaterally seizes additional privileges at the expense of your privileges that you did not agree to in the contract.

 

[Gameface]

I'm not asking about your getting vaccinated. I'm asking about your employer having the power to demand you produce and surrender personal information when you had a contract with that employer that did not include any such privilege for the employer.

I'm not asking how you feel about the vaccine. I too am extremely pro-vaccine and will soon be getting my booster. I'm more interested in how you view the power of a contract, when you are party to that contract, and the other party unilaterally seizes additional privileges at the expense of your privileges that you did not agree to in the contract.

How do you know the contract didn't include stipulations about following the law, abiding by league health and safety standards or something like that? I mean if the mandate is in violation of his contract he should push that angle... and he's not, so?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

if the mandate is in violation of his contract he should push that angle... and he's not, so?

If the mandate wasn't a violation of his contract then the Nets wouldn't be paying him tens of millions of dollars to do nothing. The mandate isn't contractually enforceable. Even when Irving doesn't comply, he isn't breaking the terms of the contract and so the Nets are compelled to pay him. If the Nets used noncompliance with the vaccine mandate as their reason to breach his contract by not paying him the money they agreed to pay, I doubt it would be 24 hours before lawyers sprang into action.

If you were a unionized factory worker and the factory owner told you that if you don't provide proof of vaccination then you have to stay at home while the factory continues to pay your full wage for staying home, I doubt that you'd fight too hard to get back in to the factory.

 

[Gameface]

If the mandate wasn't a violation of his contract then the Nets wouldn't be paying him tens of millions of dollars to do nothing. The mandate isn't contractually enforceable. Even when Irving doesn't comply, he isn't breaking the terms of the contract and so the Nets are compelled to pay him. If the Nets used noncompliance with the vaccine mandate as their reason to breach his contract by not paying him the money they agreed to pay, I doubt it would be 24 hours before lawyers sprang into action.

If you were a unionized factory worker and the factory owner told you that if you don't provide proof of vaccination then you have to stay at home while the factory continues to pay your full wage for staying home, I doubt that you'd fight too hard to get back in to the factory.

So his contract isn't being violated then... He isn't being forced to get a vaccine, he just can't play unless he does. So basically there is no problem.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

So his contract isn't being violated then... He isn't being forced to get a vaccine, he just can't play unless he does. So basically there is no problem.

For Kyrie Irving there is no problem but this tread isn't about Kyrie Irving being unhappy. Barclays Center wasn't locked down because Kyrie Irving was expressing his unhappiness. The #2 seed in the East last season is now a .400 team. A good number of fans are attributing that fall from top-tier to cellar-dweller on the vaccine mandates. If they had to lock down the arena, there basically is a problem.

 

[Gameface]

For Kyrie Irving there is no problem but this tread isn't about Kyrie Irving being unhappy. Barclays Center wasn't locked down because Kyrie Irving was expressing his unhappiness. The #2 seed in the East last season is now a .400 team. A good number of fans are attributing that fall from top-tier to cellar-dweller on the vaccine mandates. If they had to lock down the arena, there basically is a problem.

Yeah, there is a problem. It's a problem that was fully exposed on Jan. 6th. We have a large chunk of angry idiots in this country that want things their way or else they are willing to tear the whole place down.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

We have a large chunk of angry idiots in this country that want things their way or else they are willing to tear the whole place down.

Yes, but what do you do with those people. There is a similar situation going on in Chicago with the police union. Chicago did not enter negations with the union when they imposed a vaccine mandate. The deadline for vaccination has come and gone. A third of the entire police force has refused to provide proof of vaccination. Roughly 3,500 officers may be vaccinated or maybe not but aren't uploading proof either way.

As someone who has been a vocal supporter of vaccine mandates, what would you do if you were the mayor of Chicago? The police are already short staffed because they can't find enough people to apply. Murders and crime rates in Chicago are skyrocketing. Sheriffs in neighboring counties have gone on record saying they are refusing to send any of their officers to help in Chicago. Ron DeSantis in Florida has told the police union in Chicago that he will pay an immediate $5,000 bonus to any Chicago PD officer who relocates to Florida to become a police officer there. If the Chicago officers are fired or suspended without pay, likely a large number would take DeSantis up on the offer and be permanently gone.

So far, the Chicago mayor has blinked. They've suspended about 2 dozen of the most vocal officers but the remaining 3,500 are still there on the force. If you were the mayor with your convictions on the goodness of vaccine mandates, would you immediately fire 1/3rd of the police, knowing that people you represent will die as the crime statistics spike up, businesses will leave, and you will likely be blamed for all of it? Is that a price you are willing to pay to unilaterally impose a vaccine mandate on a unionized workforce?

 

[Gameface]

Yes, but what do you do with those people. There is a similar situation going on in Chicago with the police union. Chicago did not enter negations with the union when they imposed a vaccine mandate. The deadline for vaccination has come and gone. A third of the entire police force has refused to provide proof of vaccination. Roughly 3,500 officers may be vaccinated or maybe not but aren't uploading proof either way.

As someone who has been a vocal supporter of vaccine mandates, what would you do if you were the mayor of Chicago? The police are already short staffed because they can't find enough people to apply. Murders and crime rates in Chicago are skyrocketing. Sheriffs in neighboring counties have gone on record saying they are refusing to send any of their officers to help in Chicago. Ron DeSantis in Florida has told the police union in Chicago that he will pay an immediate $5,000 bonus to any Chicago PD officer who relocates to Florida to become a police officer there. If the Chicago officers are fired or suspended without pay, likely a large number would take DeSantis up on the offer and be permanently gone.

So far, the Chicago mayor has blinked. They've suspended about 2 dozen of the most vocal officers but the remaining 3,500 are still there on the force. If you were the mayor with your convictions on the goodness of vaccine mandates, would you immediately fire 1/3rd of the police, knowing that people you represent will die as the crime statistics spike up, businesses will leave, and you will likely be blamed for all of it? Is that a price you are willing to pay to unilaterally impose a vaccine mandate on a unionized workforce?

My understanding is that in the Chicago situation they have a testing option.

Yes, I would call their bluff. Get vaccinated or follow the testing guidelines or don't come to work because you don't work here anymore.

They don't like that mayor because she came in on a police reform platform. They are using this issue to weaken her and exert their power. I would absolutely call their bluff and I would be completely willing to lose 1/3 of the police force. That would be the 1/3 that don't want police reforms because they want to continue to be the kind of cops that reforms are intended to change. I'd deal with the fallout and deal with the medium term problems it would cause and I would look forward to a better police force.

 

[One Brow]

Murders and crime rates in Chicago are skyrocketing.

That true even in places that have increased the size of the police force. Losing the officers will mean less of an ability to respond after crimes more than prevent crimes.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

That true even in places that have increased the size of the police force.

Please provide current examples.

When You Add More Police To A City, What Happens?

A new study looks at the effects of growing police forces on racial inequality.

www.npr.org

The case for hiring more police officers

A crime-fighting idea that actually works, and new exclusive polling shows it’s popular across all racial groups.

www.vox.com

Hire More Cops

The death of George Floyd while in the custody of Minneapolis police has ignited calls to defund police forces across the country. While reforms targeted at punishing and removing bad cops, such as elimination of qualified immunity in civil cases and weakening of police union protections, may be...

www.city-journal.org

https://www.princeton.edu/~smello/papers/cops.pdf