Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
Amusing you put Ronnie Brewer in with that bunch.
Nuggets Close To Signing Mbenga
- Thread starter Twin Towers
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Elson will be picking away at Fes's minutes come November. Marinate in that.
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
Just FYI. When you delete part of what somebody said the meaning changes. If you are going to quote somebody leave the full quote. Do you work for the Media by chance? lol
Notice I used the term MOSTLY role players or busts. And by the way Ronnie Brewer has never been a star. He is a role player.
I will go from the 8th spot to the 14th spot since that is what you did. But I will start from 2007 just in case players need to develop.
2007
8-Brandan Wright
9-Joakim Noah
10-Spencer Hawes
11-Acie Law
12-Thaddeus Young
13-Julian Wright
14-Al Thornton
Sorry but not a single "star" in this bunch. Noah is a very good player but he is not a star in the league.
2006
8-Rudy Gay
9-Patrick O'Bryant
10-Mouhamed Sene
11-J.J. Redick
12-Hilton Armstrong
13-Thabo Sefolosha
14-Ronnie Brewer
Only Rudy Gay is a star out of these guys. Rest of them are Role players or busts like I said.
2005
8-Channing Frye
9-Ike Diogu
10-Andrew Bynum
11-Fran Vazquez
12-Yaroslav Korolev
13-Sean May
14-Rashad McCants
2004
8-Rafael Araujo
9-Andre Iguodala
10-Luke Jackson
11-Andris Biedrins
12-Robert Swift
13-Sebastian Telfair
14-Kris Humphries
Only Iggy is a star here.
I am not going to keep going because if you actually read what I said you would understand what I said. If I said you never get stars in the late first round than you would have a legit argument.
FAIL! And if you still don't think so than you need to read in the dictionary what RARELY and MOSTLY mean. 1 out of every 7 players would be a star. I would say that is rare. Lets say some of those players were considered stars in your opinion. Than it maybe would be 2 out of 7. Its still rare.
Sorry I had to disprove your idea. You lost a lot of credibility when you said Ronnie Brewer is a star.............
Let's look at 2008 and 2009, and I will actually go further than the 14th pick as well:
2008:
10 - Brook Lopez
11- Jerryd Bayless
12 - Jason Thomson
14 - Anthony Randolph
15 - Robin Lopez
17 - Roy Hibbert
19 - JJ Hickson
25 - Nicholas Batum
26 - George Hill
2009:
9 - DeMar DeRozen
10 - Brandon Jennings
11 - Terrence Williams
12 - Gerald Henderson
17 - Jrue Holiday
18 - Ty Lawson
21 - Darren Collison
23 - Omri Caspi
25 - Roddy Beaubois
26 - Taj Gibson
Don't know about you but there are some (more than) decent players there - and actually I wouldn't mind taking either the 2008 or 2009 class (post 8th pick) and start my new team any day of the week.
I wouldn't call the above players "role players" or "busts". Imagine a team consisting of the above 2 years alone:
PG - Darren Collison/Brandon Jennings/Ty Lawson/George Hill
SG - Terrence Williams/DeMar DeRozen
SF - Omri Casspi/Nicholas Batum
PF - Taj Gibson/Jason Thomson
C - Brook Lopez/Roy Hibert/Robin Lopez
Pretty nice team if you ask me and certainly more than a few stars there... and that's just for the 2008 & 2009. I haven't even looked at other years!
Wanna discuss? Fire away...
#9 picks Stoudamire, Iguodala, Noah.......
TT, no reason for all that defensiveness, your post was really not that bad. I merely drew out the part of your statement that I thought was debatable and pointed out some counterfacts. People can easily read your whole post, it is on the same page, so no need to be so sensitive about the part I quoted. It'll be okay, really, it will. Breathe deeply. Breathe....
You probably agree that in 2 of the last 8 years a #9 pick has turned into a "star" (Iguodala, Stoudamire). And you may even agree that this number is 3, because even though you seem to place #9 pick Noah into your "role player" category, not sure how a top 10 center in the league that every GM would give his left nut to have on the roster, and who very few would be surprised to see on an all-star roster in the next few years, would be categorized in this way. Perhaps you missed a category somewhere in between "role player" and "star"?
So it seems you think 25% (or 37.5% if you include Noah) is "rare", which I thought meant something like "hardly ever", but maybe my educational pedigree is inferior to yours and you would like to tell me the REAL definition, oh wise one : - )
And TT, while I do look to you for validation of my credibility (cough cough), it really upsets me (chuckle chuckle), when you say "you said Ronnie Brewer is a star".... (very sorry, this is a PARTIAL QUOTE, please read the full quote DIRECTLY ABOVE to get the FULL CONTEXT). The fact that anyone reading my post can plainly see that I did not say that "Ronnie Brewer is a star" speaks volumes to your credibility, no? I did include Ronnie as a bit of a Jazz context and expected some friendly debate on the topic (sorry, your debate was not so friendly). I would categorize Ronnie as a bit MORE than "just" a role player and a lot LESS than a star.
TT, no reason for all that defensiveness, your post was really not that bad. I merely drew out the part of your statement that I thought was debatable and pointed out some counterfacts. People can easily read your whole post, it is on the same page, so no need to be so sensitive about the part I quoted. It'll be okay, really, it will. Breathe deeply. Breathe....
You probably agree that in 2 of the last 8 years a #9 pick has turned into a "star" (Iguodala, Stoudamire). And you may even agree that this number is 3, because even though you seem to place #9 pick Noah into your "role player" category, not sure how a top 10 center in the league that every GM would give his left nut to have on the roster, and who very few would be surprised to see on an all-star roster in the next few years, would be categorized in this way. Perhaps you missed a category somewhere in between "role player" and "star"?
So it seems you think 25% (or 37.5% if you include Noah) is "rare", which I thought meant something like "hardly ever", but maybe my educational pedigree is inferior to yours and you would like to tell me the REAL definition, oh wise one : - )
And TT, while I do look to you for validation of my credibility (cough cough), it really upsets me (chuckle chuckle), when you say "you said Ronnie Brewer is a star".... (very sorry, this is a PARTIAL QUOTE, please read the full quote DIRECTLY ABOVE to get the FULL CONTEXT). The fact that anyone reading my post can plainly see that I did not say that "Ronnie Brewer is a star" speaks volumes to your credibility, no? I did include Ronnie as a bit of a Jazz context and expected some friendly debate on the topic (sorry, your debate was not so friendly). I would categorize Ronnie as a bit MORE than "just" a role player and a lot LESS than a star.
I just re-read TT's post where he explains how he considers two out of seven as "rare".
Now I understand the confusion.
Where I might say "I rarely run out of gas", TT would say "I rarely fill my car with gasoline".
Where I might say "in SLC, it rarely snows in October", TT would say "In SLC, it rarely snows in January".
Where I might say "The moon rarely eclipses the sun", TT would say "The moon is rarely full".
Much clearer now.
Now I understand the confusion.
Where I might say "I rarely run out of gas", TT would say "I rarely fill my car with gasoline".
Where I might say "in SLC, it rarely snows in October", TT would say "In SLC, it rarely snows in January".
Where I might say "The moon rarely eclipses the sun", TT would say "The moon is rarely full".
Much clearer now.
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
silesian
Ya I will agree that a few stars come into the league in the last 8 years towards the end of the lottery but same with 2nd round picks. My whole point is that we should not be expecting Hayward to be a star. Its more likely (looking at the draft history) that he will be a role player.
And I think anybody who plays off the ball and only has to worry about a few things during a game is a role player. Ronnie Brewer is one of those player. He plays off the ball and is usually the go to man to man defender. He isn't amazing at 1 category. If you aren't amazing at anything on offense and your a pretty good defender than how can you say someone is more than a role player? Most players in the league are role players. Stars can dominate in a certain aspect of there game. Brewer cannot.
MOST people on this board like to correct constantly so they purposely take things out of context or change what people said so they can have a chance to say someone is wrong or "disproved". That is why I am defensive when somebody corrects something that doesn't need to be corrected.
If you posted something like its possible to get real good talent though out of the first round (like these players) than I would have no problem. But you said you disproved this idea when you didn't disprove anything from my post.
Hotttnickkk
I was talking about the late lottery in terms of draft picks. Most teams draft by physical ability at the end of the lottery. I saw multiple websites criticizing the Jazz and saying they don't have experience in the lottery and they didn't know who to draft.
Most teams draft the guys with amazing athletic ability rather than a solid player like Hayward. That is why a lot of players don't pan out in the late lottery because they are boom or busts players. And the smart teams draft role players who you know will make an impact because they got to the NBA level with smarts rather than just jumping high.
I can show you good players from the past 10 years from any part of the draft. Doesn't change the fact that it is rare to get a star in the late lottery. It happens but you have a way better chance of getting a role player or bust.
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
That doesn't even make any sense especially your weather quote. Each example was different than the other. Glad you can clear things up with yourself.
Again what did you disprove that I said? I would love a real answer.
I stated that it is rare to get a star in the late first round. Its not like i was stating something that everyone doesn't know. Its rare to get a star in general. We shouldn't be putting these high expectations on Hayward just because we wanted something great from the New York pick. He will most likely be a role player. And if you cannot dominate a certain a part of the game than how can you be a star?
TT, your story is morphing, you did not say "it is rare to get a star in the late first round", you said "People that get drafted late in the lottery rarely turn out to be stars" huge difference, no?
And yes, each example is different, and it was probably "hope beyond reason" to think that you would grasp the examples of this general concept. I hoped to illustrate that, while you think the term "rare" means something as high as 2 out of 7, moderately literate people use the term differently.
You have explained that in your mind, 2 events out of 7 is a "rare" event (29%), then you are absolutely correct, and stick to your story! And when you watch the Yankees play a baseball game, enjoy the "rare" event of a base hit, since the Yankees bat 0.269 as a team. Or you could read the dictionary and reflect on the fact that you do not understand the meaning of the word "rare", as inevitably all readers of this post except you by now understand.
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Guitaro
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but you did the same thing and lost a lot of credibility when you said "FAIL!". To me, when people use that word it sounds like two kids on the playground in a shouting match. You don't have to be critical to have a discussion. In other words, an argument is less effective than a discussion.
Guitaro
Well-Known Member
Seriously? I sure hope it's mostly new muscle. That kid at least needs the legs to hold position. AK got away with it because he jumps so fast. Who knows, maybe Evans will follow in AK's footsteps? However, if history has taught us anything, then Evans will be looking at lots of rehab over the course of his career. I sincerely hope that Evans will be able to find the right balance between bulk and speed before he either gets hurt or too frustrated.
For now, as a leaner player, he should be focusing on the fundamentals of the game and how to use the body he already has. Unless it's the coaching staff, he can't afford to worry what everyone says about his body or game. There's tremendous power to be had in learning how and when to focus - ask any great player. Of course, if you need an example, players like Stockton or Jordan come to mind.