Object Lesson Thread

[babe]

So EJ says my PeeKay thread is my greatest wtf ever.

So here's how the universe works. Whatever it is, it is. Human opinions don't change it much. Governments can't even change it, really. Oh we might do something really stupid and go dinosaur, and who knows who would ever put our bones in a museum, but pretty much we're not too significant, riding around on this planet.

Well, some argue otherwise, and maybe they have some good points, like say some philosophers who consider "life" a winning game that can create stuff and expand upon the whole living universe, endlessly perhaps. They might not see it as an anthropocentric universe at that, or even put man on a pretty equal footing. . . . or whatever. . . . with the dolfins.

I just consider settled opinions a sort of disease that has to be treated.

This thread is for anything you can bring on that will rock Trout's boat. Well, that will rock my boat, too.

Or for anecdotes about how you got rocked off one of your settled opinions. So anyway, that's sort of my settled path in life, it turns out. You got something that is so crazy you can't stand to hear people talk about it? This is your home.

 

[babe]

Leprechauns Were Real

You thought it was just yarns about gnomes in the woods, green and gold. . . . but here's the news today:

https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/ireland-archaeologists-discover-remains-of-new-humanoid-species/

Like they said in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, this is the West. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

[/B]

 

[Siro]

So here's how the universe works. Whatever it is, it is. Human opinions don't change it much. Governments can't even change it, really. Oh we might do something really stupid and go dinosaur, and who knows who would ever put our bones in a museum, but pretty much we're not too significant, riding around on this planet.

Human opinions often change, and they often change profoundly. Someone from the 1800s would practically disagree with every mainstream ideal held today. And that's a blink of an eye ago by any measure. As for significance, the statement "humans are insignificant" never ceases to amuse me. Surely significance is a relative concept that is wholly human. Nothing is significant or insignificant in a vacuum of context. A galaxy is significant in size compared to a planet or solar system. It is utterly insignificant in size compared to the observable universe. A person can be the most significant thing in the universe to another, but is completely insignificant to a stranger s/he hasn't met. Spiritualists love to ask meaningless questions like "what is the purpose of life" as if such a question has a hidden meaning waiting for us to find.

Well, some argue otherwise, and maybe they have some good points, like say some philosophers who consider "life" a winning game that can create stuff and expand upon the whole living universe, endlessly perhaps. They might not see it as an anthropocentric universe at that, or even put man on a pretty equal footing. . . . or whatever. . . . with the dolfins.

We are on equal footing with all other creatures for the fact that we are just another species of life that evolved on Earth. We are not on equal footing with dolphins or any other Earth species in terms of general intelligence, regardless of used definition.

Or for anecdotes about how you got rocked off one of your settled opinions. So anyway, that's sort of my settled path in life, it turns out. You got something that is so crazy you can't stand to hear people talk about it? This is your home.

Too many examples to count really. I went from a religious teenager with nationalist tendencies to a liberal socialist and a techno-primitivist to a naturalist-humanist-capitalist technophile. I will go wherever the evidence takes me.

 

[Gameface]

Siro is a rockstar to me.

Rock on mother ****er!

 

[Gameface]

To try to add something of my own, I love humanity. I am thoroughly impressed by my fellow human.

We are an amazing species. Take a close look. We are not just special, we're amazing. Look again.

We're special. As far as we know we're the most special. Embrace it. Be it. Accept it. You're pretty ****ing remarkable.

 

[Gameface]

To try to add something of my own, I love humanity. I am thoroughly impressed by my fellow human.

We are an amazing species. Take a close look. We are not just special, we're amazing. Look again.

We're special. As far as we know we're the most special. Embrace it. Be it. Accept it. You're pretty ****ing remarkable.

To me this is a much more powerful revelation than "Jesus loves me."

I hope humanity can love itself more than it imagines it is loved by a supernatural being.

 

[babe]

To try to add something of my own, I love humanity. I am thoroughly impressed by my fellow human.

We are an amazing species. Take a close look. We are not just special, we're amazing. Look again.

We're special. As far as we know we're the most special. Embrace it. Be it. Accept it. You're pretty ****ing remarkable.

Thoughts like this are as old as the hills. . . . were probably expressed ten thousand years ago in Sanskrit, maybe found in the oldest Hindu sacred writings. . . . with variations on emphasis. A lot of folks who have one or more of the formal "religions" will in fact sometimes, or maybe sometimes in word only, choose to place emphasis on the people around them who either have great need for compassion and service, or whom they appreciate and love. In my traditional frame of reference, loving the humans is the "godly" way, the example of Christ as a redeemer or of God as a father, the claim attributed to God of His "work and glory" consisting of his project developing us humans. The LDS view of this life as a school or a testing place, with an emphasis of our worth as children of God and of this world being created for us, to give us a progressive development though experience and through having a physical identity/body. . . ..

Game, you haven't strayed too far from the idea. . . .

 

[Gameface]

Thoughts like this are as old as the hills. . . . were probably expressed ten thousand years ago in Sanskrit, maybe found in the oldest Hindu sacred writings. . . . with variations on emphasis. A lot of folks who have one or more of the formal "religions" will in fact sometimes, or maybe sometimes in word only, choose to place emphasis on the people around them who either have great need for compassion and service, or whom they appreciate and love. In my traditional frame of reference, loving the humans is the "godly" way, the example of Christ as a redeemer or of God as a father, the claim attributed to God of His "work and glory" consisting of his project developing us humans. The LDS view of this life as a school or a testing place, with an emphasis of our worth as children of God and of this world being created for us, to give us a progressive development though experience and through having a physical identity/body. . . ..

Game, you haven't strayed too far from the idea. . . .

I haven't strayed from the idea at all. Humans are pretty impressive. No need for a supernatural force.

 

[babe]

To me this is a much more powerful revelation than "Jesus loves me."

I hope humanity can love itself more than it imagines it is loved by a supernatural being.

I would agree with you that love of humanity is a powerful revelation. You and I, I am sure, will differ on the specifics or details in a lot of values. We will understand the concepts differently as well, maybe be thinking differently when we use the same exact words. . . .

You are in these thoughts more LDS than Catholic or Protestant, or Bible fundamentalist because of your emphasis on the value of our love, which those belief systems don't emphasize as much as God's sovereign power, authority, and superior ways, or as much as the greater love, as they view it, which Jesus had for us in giving Himself as a ransom for our sins, bringing us back from death to life spiritually, as well as the promised resurrection. The LDS do emphasize the value of our faith, our service, our virtue, and our love for others as the practical definition of the faith. In the LDS view, the love you speak of is an essential part of our development towards becoming as our Father in Heaven is. Some folks do feel discouraged in recognizing our problems in falling short, and feel to put emphasis on the fact that "Jesus paid it all", that Jesus did all the necessary "work", as in the movie "Ring the Bell" which you can get in a Christian bookstore but not Deseret Book(LDS). I like the song in that movie by Casting Crowns, a fundamentalist musical group that does a youth ministry outreach.

It's not that Jesus is a sentimental sap, it's what He did for us.

I look as life as a gift from God. God knows I'd be dead but for help in many specific moments. God knows I'd be blind and paralyzed but for His intervention in things. God knows I wouldn't have ever made it here to live in the first place but for all He did for me.

I can't pay God back with anything I can do. But I am primarily motivated in much of my life, many of my decisions, by a desire to give something back. I could give back by serving people, but I also intend to give back by loving God and so far as I am able or cognizant, to become like I think He is.

I would reflect that we all have some kind of "learning curve", some kind of path we are on. It is amazing to me when I reflect back on my life and recognize God loved me when I was thus or so, which I would be mortified to describe today. I would have to conclude that God must love almost everyone. . . . you'd have to be in actual "league with devil" to put yourself in a position where you would limit God's love for you by your hostilities against Him.
I don't know how to judge it all. I read in an LDS Conference Report volume from oh say 1917, how Heber J. Grant held forth, after being employed by Chase bank or somesuch for some years, that the New York bankers were "fine people". He turned the LDS Church from a populist/democrat people to a progressive republican culture. One of these days I might write a book on that history. I would at first think that was an evil turn, but then I remember a saying by Jesus when folks criticized Him for associating with sinners. Let's just say it is cause to ponder.
. . . . .

I consider it likely that most people idealize their course in life, and believe it good. It is common for people's beliefs to follow their path. . . their associations, their choices, their actions. No doubt people who believe practically the opposite of everything I believe hold "love" for others high, when they pause from their diversions, jobs, and chores, to think about others. We all know some people who are just so nice. . . . neighbors, co-workers, teachers, whatever. . . . because they are always polite, considerate, generous, and helpful. . . . and maybe good in many other ways to us.

So, in my opinion, some of us do love others more than we think Jesus or any supernatural being loves us. However, I hazard the offhand observation that those of us who think we do or can or should love one another more than we think we are loved by "god", simply do not know about God's love for us.

And yes, I'm reading in Game's comment a lot of awe and wonder at things we see people do, at what talents we have, at what goodness is often in us, or even in our talents physically, intellectually or otherwise, or even in our amazing physiology. . . .

I have to step back from dogmatic religion, and focus on the attributes of the God I think I know, to see the use of love in what I think God does for us. I see people reach that kind of love in other religions than "mine". I watched the movie "Gandhi" with my girls as a history lesson last week.

 

[LogGrad98]

Colton not too long ago shared something with me in a PM that changed my view of my religion and my relationship to others. I have discussed this in depth with my wife and find that it has helped improve our relationship which I already felt was pretty damn good. I still deal with bouts of depression and likely will my entire life, but I have a different kind of hope now than I had before, and it makes it somewhat easier to bear. I am somewhat less nihilistic, you might say. Thanks Colton.

 

[babe]

Colton not too long ago shared something with me in a PM that changed my view of my religion and my relationship to others. I have discussed this in depth with my wife and find that it has helped improve our relationship which I already felt was pretty damn good. I still deal with bouts of depression and likely will my entire life, but I have a different kind of hope now than I had before, and it makes it somewhat easier to bear. I am somewhat less nihilistic, you might say. Thanks Colton.

I never saw you as struggling with depression or nihilism, I just thought you were intelligent and even-handed in your dealings with others, with a lot of compassion and good sense.

 

[babe]

So, speaking of dramatic life-changing events, I know of one person who is going through something beyond the Richter scale in that category.

Used to be about my worst pain in the neck. . . .

My opinion of what happened to him runs about like this. He married a Cat 5 hurricane of "Drama", and he thought he could be pretty heavy handed in dealing with her. I think a step-dau wanted to use makeup, and he tried to say "No" to a 14-yr-old. The argument went on for weeks, the mom raising the ante about every day.

Well, long story short, he's in jail on serious charges, trumped up and false I'd guess.
It's going to be a while before he gets to trial, and there's a serious reality that the charges will stick, and it'll be years before he gets out.

So I went to visit him today, and offered a bit of advice to try to turn things a bit. But without me, he is a pretty transformed person. From someone who made big bucks and spent it just as fast, he's washed his hands of everything he has, and says it doesn't even matter.

He talked a little about bringing charges when he's acquitted against the perjurers and whatnot. I skipped the bit about telling him to not think that way, but I did suggest he could benefit from taking a bigger look at the picture. I suggested that there will be some positives in the aftermath, and better choices in life ahead for him.

Overall, he's made a serious turn for the better already.

The reason I bring this in here is that most of his comments were an effusion of comments about the love of God, and of things that have happened that have given him a whole new way to look at everything.

So put this down as one where a materialist found a reason to believe in God, and take peace, and wonder, at the fact of God's love.

So at one point when he was at an absolute bottom, he prayed all day asking for God to send someone to visit him. For some reason that day, an LDS stake president who regularly does some counseling to folks in prison, came home and was hanging up his coat. He said something hit him, in his intelligence center, brain and heart, that he needed to go to the prison. So he put on his coat again, and went, and asked at the visitor registration if there was anyone who had asked for a visitor, particularly from the Church. And was directed to the man.

With a little sensitivity and a lot of compassion, some comforting words. "God has heard your prayers and is aware of all this. Things will be done for you."

 

[Hekate]

Just 13 posts that could have been in The longest thread ever.

 

[The Midnight]

Colton not too long ago shared something with me in a PM that changed my view of my religion and my relationship to others. I have discussed this in depth with my wife and find that it has helped improve our relationship which I already felt was pretty damn good. I still deal with bouts of depression and likely will my entire life, but I have a different kind of hope now than I had before, and it makes it somewhat easier to bear. I am somewhat less nihilistic, you might say. Thanks Colton.

What did he share with you if you don't mind me asking? Could you share a bit of what he shared?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

What did he share with you if you don't mind me asking? Could you share a bit of what he shared?

I'm pretty sure if he wanted to do that he would have.

 

[TroutBum]

So, speaking of dramatic life-changing events, I know of one person who is going through something beyond the Richter scale in that category.

Used to be about my worst pain in the neck. . . .

My opinion of what happened to him runs about like this. He married a Cat 5 hurricane of "Drama", and he thought he could be pretty heavy handed in dealing with her. I think a step-dau wanted to use makeup, and he tried to say "No" to a 14-yr-old. The argument went on for weeks, the mom raising the ante about every day.

Well, long story short, he's in jail on serious charges, trumped up and false I'd guess.
It's going to be a while before he gets to trial, and there's a serious reality that the charges will stick, and it'll be years before he gets out.

So I went to visit him today, and offered a bit of advice to try to turn things a bit. But without me, he is a pretty transformed person. From someone who made big bucks and spent it just as fast, he's washed his hands of everything he has, and says it doesn't even matter.

He talked a little about bringing charges when he's acquitted against the perjurers and whatnot. I skipped the bit about telling him to not think that way, but I did suggest he could benefit from taking a bigger look at the picture. I suggested that there will be some positives in the aftermath, and better choices in life ahead for him.

Overall, he's made a serious turn for the better already.

The reason I bring this in here is that most of his comments were an effusion of comments about the love of God, and of things that have happened that have given him a whole new way to look at everything.

So put this down as one where a materialist found a reason to believe in God, and take peace, and wonder, at the fact of God's love.

So at one point when he was at an absolute bottom, he prayed all day asking for God to send someone to visit him. For some reason that day, an LDS stake president who regularly does some counseling to folks in prison, came home and was hanging up his coat. He said something hit him, in his intelligence center, brain and heart, that he needed to go to the prison. So he put on his coat again, and went, and asked at the visitor registration if there was anyone who had asked for a visitor, particularly from the Church. And was directed to the man.

With a little sensitivity and a lot of compassion, some comforting words. "God has heard your prayers and is aware of all this. Things will be done for you."

Having spent a little time in jail myself I can say with full confidence that it changes you. It is like being on another planet; you don't realize what freedom is, and how good you've got it until you've had a stay in the Greybar Hotel.

This thread has potential.

Here's my contribution:

I'm studying the possibility of Ancient Egyptians in and around Utah. From what I've read and seen with my own eyes, I think it is a very reasonable assumption that they were here. I'm tagging along with the Ancient Historical Research Foundation later this year for a trip to Lake Powell to verify claims of ancient Egyptian cartouche's carved into some very remote rocks. I'm pretty excited about it, tbpfhwy.

 

[babe]

Having spent a little time in jail myself I can say with full confidence that it changes you. It is like being on another planet; you don't realize what freedom is, and how good you've got it until you've had a stay in the Greybar Hotel.

This thread has potential.

Here's my contribution:

I'm studying the possibility of Ancient Egyptians in and around Utah. From what I've read and seen with my own eyes, I think it is a very reasonable assumption that they were here. I'm tagging along with the Ancient Historical Research Foundation later this year for a trip to Lake Powell to verify claims of ancient Egyptian cartouche's carved into some very remote rocks. I'm pretty excited about it, tbpfhwy.

Try to get Dr. jones to go along with you. Louis L' Amor always plugs all the ancients for being global operators. Barry Fell claimed the Polynesians came from Egypt, that their writing was Reformed Egyptian, and that they left stuff written on rocks along beaches from Chile to California.