Of past and present, and a franchise's identity

[JAZZFAN_2814]

You think your thoughts need their own thread.

How many threads have been started in the last day? How many threads have I started in my history on this board, or the one before?

There was a theme and reason for a separate thread.

So, yeah. Like a lot of people, I had certain thoughts that I wanted to represent in a new thread.

How is your parsing, or dissembling, this not its own blather?

They can boil down to a more elemental and palatable product if you want it to.

So your standard is some fact, instead of its own subjective preference?

I didn't know that.

You lost me when you started saying Deron has been conspiring to remove the franchise's most beloved personality when he could find a way out in a year and a half or less.

Oh, I think he very much used that. As explicit or implied leverage to get his way.

Which is, really, my point. Thanks for underlining it.

It would be far easier for Deron to force himself out,

Do you not see that this is a circular point? Particularly as regards a spineless owner, and an inept GM?

and yet, there's apparently even less evidence of that than that he tried to destroy a man in his way.

What? This seems rather blathery. Sorry to say.

 

[sahlensguy]

Sure. Except you have no idea what went on behind the scenes. How do you know Williams didn't try to exhaust internal resources and work with Sloan?

I think he dogged on the court it since November. That isn't behind the scenes and isn't on the up and up.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Deron went through all of that effort to vilify himself and potentially make his remaining time here hellacious when he could either force himself out or bide his time. That makes a ton of sense, especially since there is no precedent for it.

 

[JAZZFAN_2814]

Deron went through all of that effort to vilify himself and potentially make his remaining time here hellacious when he could either force himself out or bide his time.

And management understands the danger in this.

Further, from this, Deron understands his power.

Not so illogical, at all. The more you belabor it, the more you drive the point home.

That makes a ton of sense, especially since there is no precedent for it.

How many coaches were Jerry Sloan?

And yet, it's clear to all of us who was more important. Right? Isn't that even the assumption of Deron backers? Isn't that THE assumption for Deron?

How important he is?

So far as precedent, megalomania is not exactly a new concept. Nor a coup.

 

[sahlensguy]

Deron went through all of that effort to vilify himself and potentially make his remaining time here hellacious when he could either force himself out or bide his time. That makes a ton of sense, especially since there is no precedent for it.

You don't understand a passive aggressive person. Refer to the Hayward situation. Lashing out at a 20 year old rookie when you are upset at something else is passive aggressive. There is precedent.

I think that is how he has acted since the game after he received his November player of the month award. He dogged the Dallas game.

 

[NUMBERICA]

You don't understand a passive aggressive person. Refer to the Hayward situation. Lashing out at a 20 year old rookie when you are upset at something else is passive aggressive. There is precedent.

You don't know what passive aggressive means if you think that is an example.

 

[zman1527]

JazzFan_2814: your analysis is funadmentally flawed in your insistence that Sloan was fired. He was not, he quit, plain and simple. Or is he now a liar?

Did trouble with Deron help lead to him leaving now? Likely, but as he said it was largely age and energy.

If he was fired, who do you think did it? Do you really think KOC had the authority to fire the HOF HC of 23 years? Do you think Greggy had the balls? No, the only way this was ever going to happen was for Sloan decided it was time to hang it up. And that is what happened.

So, put that into your analyzer and start over again. Your original premise is wrong.

 

[JAZZFAN_2814]

JazzFan_2814: your analysis is funadmentally flawed in your insistence that Sloan was fired. He was not, he quit, plain and simple.

He quit. After he learned that the Jazz were no longer his.

Or is he now a liar?

No. What Sloan is, in his own gruff, curmudgeonly way is tactful and, more than that, loyal.

He didn't want to hurt the organization, even as they were hurting him.

I know. I know. Foreign concepts.

If he was fired, who do you think did it? Do you really think KOC had the authority to fire the HOF HC of 23 years?

I discussed this in the post. Try reading comprehension before replying, next time.

Anyway, the point is that these figures clearly sided with the star player, instead of the HOF coach. And with the player doing everything -- taking games off, playing like he was already off the team, ignoring Sloan, changing plays, breaking plays, et cetera -- to push Sloan off the bench, there's no way Jerry could operate, could lead the team, without management's backing.

He didn't get it, and as he predicted many times over many years, that meant it was time to go.

Are you so dim that you think this is some sort of semantic win for your side?

 

[Sub-Odeon]

Hi JF2814! (waves)

For everyone defending Deron, it's essentially cemented in the public perception now that Deron Williams forced Sloan out. Whether or not this is fact or not is immaterial. The word on the street is that Deron was arguing and bickering with Sloan, punctuated by the events during and after the Chicago loss. Whether Jerry left of his own accord or as a co-decision with KOC to try and salvage the season is also immaterial. The majority of Utah Jazz fans now see this as a player revolt with Deron at its head.

Only a superbly recovered season and deep playoffs run will salvage the image of Deron Williams, and several other players.

Probably, Deron gets traded so that the Jazz don't get LeBronned like Cleveland. Williams doesn't like it here anymore and the fans don't like Williams after the way Sloan exited. If the Jazz are smart they will package D-Will to a contender for draft picks and some lunchbucket guys, muddle through the season, and then spend the summer trying to find a good head coach and focusing on a rebuild.

If Deron is not traded, speculation will run wild about his loyalties and his ability to be a franchise leader. Especially if he chokes down the stretch run and/or during the playoffs. Who runs the Jazz now? Corbin seems like a nice guy, but is he an enforcer like Sloan? My instincts tell me he is a figurehead coach until the summer comes, then it's game on as KOC and Co. try to locate a younger, dynamic coach to package with a fresh squad of guys.

Any way you slice it, Sloan's dreadful departure is going to be stamped all over Williams, and vice versa. Williams is more or less cemented as the Sloan-killer. Doesn't matter if that's how it actually happened, that's public perception. And perception is 90% of everything in so many situations.

 

[JAZZFAN_2814]

Hey Sub.

Real long time. The halcyon days of the ESPN boards.

Stock. Malone. Sloan. Larry.

Even as someone who questioned the late LHM -- who was and still is somewhat upset over certain decisions -- I can't help but think that things would have been different with him in charge. That there was an underlying loyalty to Sloan and what he meant, that this would be respected throughout the organization.

Anyway, I take it you're back in SLC? Ironic. From Seattle to Salt Lake, how quickly fortunes change in the NBA.

 

[jimmyjazz]

After watching Sloan's gut-wrenching farewell, itself precipitated by another listless (or is that pissy, premeditated and putrid?) performance from Deron Williams, it occurred to me: what does this franchise stand for?

Loyalty. Commitment. Stability. Honesty. Any sense of right and wrong.

Hate it as much as the next guy the manner of Sloan's leaving, almost as bad as Karl going to the Lakers, but the man will have his proper farewell yet.

In recent years, this franchise has stood for middle-of-the-roadness, predictability, cosy stagnation. Are those things right or wrong? It comes to your sports team, you yearn for achievement, excitement and a sense of moving forward.

Not Sloan's fault but he is what he is. The incarnation of rock-solid stability, with all its pros and cons. Personally I think management didn't do enough to give Sloan a team he deserves to lead to greater things. And no, it's not because Deron is evil and neither could Sloan coach forever.

Transition is always rough but here's to hoping that the changes will eventually be for the better.

 

[write4u]

I think JF 2814 is overestimating the power Deron possesses. He is no diabolical villain, but I would agree that he was the catalyst, despite what Jerry says. Jerry just had enough and wasn't going to take Deron's b.s. -- you know, Jerry, he's stubborn. That's why I wonder about the alleged suspension. Maybe he did threaten Deron with that, and KOC tried to dissuade him, and when that happened Jerry said, enough is enough.