chawx
Active Member
Would you rather we kept him to play alongside Hayward, Howard, Sap and Jefferson last year, then have him sign with another team this year, and leave us with no Favors, Kanter, GS pick, and Marvin Williams?
Would you rather we kept him to play alongside Hayward, Howard, Sap and Jefferson last year, then have him sign with another team this year, and leave us with no Favors, Kanter, GS pick, and Marvin Williams?
TheSilencer1313
Well-Known Member
Haha, shows what you know about basketball.
Elite payed point guards will never win a championship, because it doesn't leave enough under the cap to get good big men and wing players.
Oh wait..... Joe Johnson....
Except he did not sign with another team in spite of Nets having much inferior record and losing all the time, compared to Jazz. And the reason is 30 mil extra dollars he could get from the team with his Bird's rights (would have been the Jazz). That's a lot of money to leave on the table. There is enormous difference between 5 year 98 mil deal and 4 year 68 mil. That's why he stayed with crappy Nets. Why would he not stay with us for 30 extra mil? Imagine, we now could have had this line-up: DWill, Burks, Hayward, Millsap, AJ. And Mo Williams on the bench. This team is much better than anything we have today. And if KOC matched Blazers offer for Wes instead of getting scrubs like Bell and Howard, we would have had a bench, which includes Matthews as well. The truth is, Kanter and Marvin Williams are just not that valuable. Matthews is even better than Marvin. Favors is better, but he is nowhere near Deron's level. In fact, as good as he was, he lost starting spot to Millsap. He may be better now, but not Deron Williams level. KOC blew this one, and he blew it big time. He settled for mediocre players, when he could have easily had a star - top PG in the League (now with Rose busing his knee). Just being patient and taking a small risk. Nets did it, and Deron did not sign with anyone else in spite of short history and poor record.
And that's the criteria for calling KOC God? The truth is, we did not get much more than anything. Even Favors is still a back-up. Will he be a starter next year - maybe or maybe not. Deron is the best PG in the game. And we could have easily traded TPE for Marvin Williams anyway, not that he is a difference maker. we got bunch of average players and scrubs for a young superstar. This is a horrible trade. Tell me: if someone offered you DWill now for Favors and other scrubs, wouldn't you get on your knees right now, satisfied the GM that made an offer, and then gladly took the deal?
Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
I'll get back to you in a year.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Not if he only had 1 year remaining on his contract, had stopped running the plays the coach wanted and quit on his teammates. No thanks. I want NO part of that whiny *&^%$!
those were the problems he had with Jazz. The question is, if you are GM of another team would you trade Favors+stuff for Deron? I bet you would.I mean, the Nets did that already. I dislike the guy too for what he did here but you cant let that skew your objectivity.
I personally think it was a win-win trade. Jazz got something for Deron which could turn into something special instead of losing him for nothing and dealing with the prima donna that he is. Nets got their star. Agreed, it was not a star-for-star trade for Jazz and the conventional wisdom is you dont trade away a star for a bunch of role players. But the jury is still out on Favors' ceiling. I am willing to wait on Favors, Burks and Kanter.
Also to Borat ,the Jazz are not the Nets. The Nets Russian mafia owner had deep pockets to pay Deron and still manage to get Joe Johnson and sign Lopez. I am not sure if the Jazz being small market and all wanted to pay 98 mil to Deron when he is clearly is NOT a franchise-type player. He is not the best PG in the league either. Rose, Paul, Westbrook would all have to be ranked right at the same level as Deron if not above going by last year's performance. And Deron is 28, his game is not going to suddenly improve by leaps and bounds. If anything he will slow down after 2-3 years.
And remember he was the guy who had Al Jefferson on his wishlist for the Jazz to go and get. Do you miss him still?
And remember he was the guy who had Al Jefferson on his wishlist for the Jazz to go and get. Do you miss him still?
I am not sure who has more payroll - Jazz or Nets. There is a salary CAP, and last I checked Jazz were one of the top paying teams. If anything, because of new CBA agreement, salaries are less than before. Deron is a MAX player. He is a star. Whether he is the best PG in the League can be debated, but with Rose (who was the best) tearing his ligaments, it's between Paul and Deron. Westbrook I think is a bit worse. Certainly a MAX player - no question there. We are not talking about AK47 and his contract here. Instead of paying him though, we are paying same money to Favors, Marvin, Kanter, Raja, and other scrubs. If we did not make this trade and matched Matthews, we would have had starting line-up of DWill, Wes, Hayward, Millsap, AJ. Burks would be on the roster as well. This is significantly better than anything we had last year or will have for years to come. Instead of that we have bunch of scrubs, and people are calling KOC god for trading a star for scrubs.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
It's a "soft cap" meaning teams can exceed it and most will. And you are wrong...salaries are not less because of the new CBA. The cap and luxury tax remain exactly where they were last season. It is true that the Jazz will be in the upper half of the league in terms of payroll. But you aren't counting every transaction that has occurred yet. Check back when all the trades, offer sheets and extensions around the league are final. You'll see the Jazz have slipped a few notches in their payroll ranking.
How many times do you need to understand...Deron was NOT going to re-sign with the Jazz, not even for MAX $. Jazz repeatedly asked his agent if they could get a commitment. Had the agent simply said, "agree to pay Deron the MAX and he'll stay," I'll bet the Jazz would have paid him the $. After all, KOC and Greg sided with Deron over Sloan. They refused to discipline Deron for not running the plays. Sloan wanted him suspended and Greg and KOC said "no." Sloan then decided to tender his resignation. Do you really think a lineup of DWill, Wes, Hayward, Millsap and AJ was championship material? I don't. Besides, with Deron at MAX, Jefferson being paid a ton of $, Millsap getting $8M and Matthews at a ridiculously high salary, that lineup would have ended after this season anyway.
Yes, the Jazz are rebuilding. It took a few years to unravel the financial mess left by Okur, Boozer, AK and Deron. You can't get rid of all those salaries overnight, not if you're also trying to stay respectable. What's remarkable is KOC has no outrageous contracts on the books for next season. The largest right now would be Marvin Williams IF he picks up his option. But $7M isn't that much for a starting SF.
Sorry the Millers aren't billionaires. Sorry Utah is not New York or LA. Jazz are never going to get a Ray Allen to sign for a few million. Never going to attract a Steve Nash. And I've never once heard - in 30+ years as a Jazz fan, a player say "trade me to Utah and nowhere else." In fact, when you hear players have lists of preferred places, I can't remember one time hearing Utah as one of those destinations. I have heard the opposite, of players refusing trades to Utah.
Why torture yourself Borat? Hop aboard the Brooklyn bandwagon. Go over to the Miami board and see if you too can cheer a championship next season on the coattails of LeBron, DWade and the sorry-*** players who are now trying to get a cheap ring.
I know it's a soft CAP. The fact is though that now it is harder to go above it due to harsher luxury tax and also contracts got shorter - now you cannot offer any FA who is not your own more than 4 years. And 5th year that own team can offer is the one that pays the most. The system is designed more with new CBA for teams to be able to keep their players and compete at similar level. Even in Deron's case. Other teams could only offer him 68 guaranteed (4 years). Own team could offer 98 over 5. That's a HUGE difference, when a team can offer you 44% guaranteed - with one extra year. But besides all that, Greg IS paying top dollars. Only 3 teams paid substantially more: https://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm . So, don't make it sound like poor Greg cannot compete financially. Greg DID put up the dough. KOC just wasn't able to build a great team using the financial freedom he was given.
I know that had he said before he would sign, they would have kept him. But Deron did not want to give assurance. To Jazz or to Nets. That's fair. There was some risk involved. But do you really think that Deron would have turned down 100 mil contract for 70 mil one? He didn't for the Nets is spite of Nets LOSING all the time. In spite of having no history with them. He still signed with crappy Nets, because he is in his prime now, and this is his chance to make money. Yes, there was some risk. KOC, as always didn't want to take risks to have a star and settled for scrubs without taking a small risk. Nets risked (much more than Jazz) and they got the star.
And Harris, Raja/Howard, Hayward, Millsap, and AJ is? I don't know if above line will ever win, but it is heck of a lot better than what we had last year or will have this year. The point is, you have better core, and there are still ways to improve the team via trade. Just that line up I mentioned and we could have easily had is far ahead than the one we actually had, thanks to KOC. In other words, we are A LOT farther from title contending team now than we would have been had KOC not destroyed the team.
We already had a starting SF. Hayward is a lot younger is already better than Marvin. I would prefer save these 7.5 mil towards a true star player rather than pay someone who is inferior to another player we have on the roster for same position.
You seem to have some grasp on situation, but coming up with ridiculous conclusions based on it. Yes, it's hard for Utah to attract free agents. So, what's the point of all that CAP space you are talking about? Jazz only chance is to KEEP start players we draft, and thankfully the system, as I described before, is aimed to achieve just that. We could have KEPT DWill by offering him 100 mil when others could only offer 70. We could have kept Wes by matching Blazers. It is a lot more difficult as you pointed out to go and find people in free agency. So, keep the people whom you already have!!! Keeping DWill is our chance to actually get a star for years to come. Instead KOC settled for scrubs.
I've been a Jazz fan for 20 years and I want Jazz to finally build a contender. Yet when I see KOC trading the only star we had for scrubs, because he MIGHT leave later, that takes us many years back. How many years is it going to be until we get a chance to have the best PG (or any other position) in the League again? If we did not trade Deron, we would have a great chance this summer. And people here are saying KOC is god for losing the only star we had since since Malone/Stockton.
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
If your "what if" is to be followed, and if it is assumed that the lineup you list would have been successful, then no Burks. I love how you throw Bell into your list of "scrubs" as an obvious attempt to hide their value. Scrubs, lulz.
What's your point. We spent same money Wes would have made when we let him go on scrubs, like Bell and Howard. Basically we traded quality for quantity with Wes and Deron and got a whole bunch of so so players for a superstar and the best defender on the team, who can also knock down 3s. That's the reality. But yeah, KOC is god for trading a star for much of former high picks, who didn't amount to anything great.
jazzfan1971
Well-Known Member
Man, we haven't even used all the assets we got from the Deron trade yet and all ready folks are judging it as a failure.
Lets talk this time next year, at least we'll know exactly what we got for Deron at that point.
Lets talk this time next year, at least we'll know exactly what we got for Deron at that point.
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
The DWill - AK -Boozer team was a failure. Deron got really pissed off when it was beginning to be blown up, and had to be moved. Regardless of how much you or me or anybody loved Wes he was not the piece to take that team over the hump. It'd be nice to have been able to rebuild this quickly and keep Deron but he wasn't having it.
To look away from that truth would have been to extend the pain that was Deron's last year 1/2, and fail to capitalize on his value while it was still close to it's peak. If you really believe it was a mistake to trade DWill, or that Utah did not receive enough compensation you will find yourself in a very small minority and not just with Jazz fans.
Calling Favors a scrub is just about the most laughable thing I've ever read here. Do yourself a favor and get on boards around the league asking what teams would give for him. It might open your eyes to his actual value.
What? Did you check the title of this thread? The opposite is true: folks are calling KOC God for getting us assets for Deron, who did not accomplish anything yet, and we don't know if they will. Both Kanter and Favors are yet to crack starting line-ups, not to mention become the best at their position, like Deron was. Yet people are calling KOC God for getting rid a star for what currently are bench players. That's just ridiculous.
Scorpjazz
Well-Known Member
Agreed, if we keep both Sap and Al this is how it SHOULD be
But, I think one of them will be gone this year sometime
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
WE got a starter in Harris, who we have now traded for a different starter in Marvin Williams. Favors should have been a starter, but the coaching staff was trying to keep peace with Millsap.
I'll take two quality starters (at a combined half the price) + two additional 1st-round picks over a whiny *&^%$ who didn't want to play in Utah anymore.
Assume Kanter doesn't develop into a starter and the GS pick is no better than a backup. That's still parlaying Deron, who had 1 1/2 feet out the door into 2 starters and 2 backups. And not having to pay MAX to a starting PG. I'm not sure Deron is even top-5 right now at his position. He is on reputation, but his shooting has been inconsistent and his defense has always been a bit suspect against faster PG's.
D
Deleted member 848
Guest
I am ready to give this offseason a solid A
This. There was 0.0% chance that Deron would resign with the Jazz, so we got the deal, period. Maybe the nets got the deal as well .. Time will tell.
I for one think it was a total stud move by KOC.