Orrin Hatch destroys Dan

[Gameface]

Interesting parallel. Osama did tarnish Islam whether non-violent Muslims think it is fair or not.

You reported Thriller for calling you "weak minded" or something similar, yet your friend Snout makes similar insults daily and you are just fine with it because it aint directed at you.
They both try to defend their religion in very piggish ways, but when Snout hypocritically goes after Thriller for being a bad representation of Mormondom you didn't say a word.
You can't see the double standard?

That was actually intended as a joke. I guess it wasn't funny and/or no one got it.

I've never heard Trout espousing on the virtues of practicing LDS faith as he does. I've never heard him criticize anyone for having different religious beliefs than him or for how others practice their religious beliefs or lack thereof. What I have heard is that as a result of very significant personal experiences he has faith in a higher power. Not in a way where he uses his experience to prove to me or you or anyone else that we must accept his beliefs as our own, just as a way of explaining how he has come to have faith. I have a lot of respect for the way he handles himself in that regard.

So now go ahead and quote several dozen jokes he's made that are disrespectful of other's faith then gloat about how you've torn me a new *******. I live for that ****.

 

[PearlWatson]

A thorough study of LDS authorities will produce a lot of sentiments spoken from pulpits over the years. It is true that the populist notions of communal economics have not gotten much air in recent times, and that there is too much social shock and awe held out for financial giants in the ranks of the members, and that financial success is the most important qualifier in Mormondom for theological authority nowadays.

But the Lord told Joseph Smith not to get into financial operations, and when he did, he failed miserably, and to his credit he spent the rest of his life trying to pay back the folks who suffered from his ill-advised project. However, his speeches as a politician were not considered theological revelations, just practical proposals for solving current issues. It would have been extremely ill-advised for a politician in that day to speak for financial institutions or interests to the exclusion of the needs of the common folks. So you should expect to find many statements in the records, if they can be found, advocating against the interests of the very rich and very powerful.

Too bad there isn't anyone in the LDS leadership today that will do the same.

To be fair financial success for church leaders is important for practical reasons. Success in business does give them the ability and skill development to lead a church.

I did some reading into Joseph Smith's platform. The best part is when he rips Martin Van Buren a new hole for his stance on slavery, but there are a few parts dealing with economy/finance.
He sounds a lot more like Benson than in opposition to him. He mentions "discouraging luxury," but in reference to government not individuals:

Unity is power, and when I reflect on the importance of it to the stability of all

governments, I am astounded at the silly moves of persons and parties, to foment

discord in order to ride into power on the current of popular excitement; nor am I

less surprised at the stretches of power, or restrictions of right, which too often

appear as acts of legislators, to pave the way to some favorite political schemes, as

destitute of intrinsic merit, as a wolf's heart is of the milk of human kindness; a

Frenchman would say, "prosque tot aimer richesses et pouvoir;" (almost all men like

wealth and power.)
I must dwell on this subject longer than others, for nearly one hundred years ago that

golden patriot, Benjamin Franklin drew up a plan of union for the then colonies of

Great Britain that now are such an independent nation, which among many wise

provisions for obedient children under their father's more rugged hand,- thus; "they

have power to make laws, and lay and levy such general duties, imports, or taxes, as

to them shall appear most equal and just (considering the ability and other

circumstances of the inhabitants in the several colonies,) and such as may be

collected with the least inconvenience to the people; rather discouraging luxury, than

loading industry with unnecessary burthens." Great Britain surely lacked the laudable

humanity and fostering clemency to grant such a just plan of union - but the sentiment

remains like the land that honored its birth as a pattern for wise men to study the

convenience of the people more than the comfort of the cabinet.

He makes several predictions/prophecies here, one having to do with "great men" smuggling a fortune at one fell swoop:

Speculators will urge a national bank as a savior of credit and comfort.

A hireling pseudo priesthood will plausibly push abolition doctrines and doings, and

"human rights," into Congress and into every other place, where conquest smells of

fame, or opposition swells to popularity,...

A Still higher grade, of what the "nobility of the nations" call "great men," will

dally with all rights in order to smuggle a fortune at "one fell swoop;" mortgage

Texas, posess Oregon, and claim all the unsettled regions of the world for hunting and

trapping; and should a humble honest man, red, black, or white, exhibit a better

title, these gentry have only to clothe the judge with richer ermine, and spangle the

lawyer's fingers with finer rings, to have the judgement of his peers, and the honor

of his lords, as a pattern of honesty, virtue and humanity, while the motto hangs on

his nation's escutcheon; "Every man has his price!"

This one talks about economy in government so there can be less taxes:

More economy in the nation and state; would make less taxes among the people; more

equality through the cities, towns and country, would make less distinction among the

people; and more honesty and familiarity in societies, would make less hypocrisy and

flattery in all branches of community; and open, frank, candid, decorum to all men, in

this boasted land of liberty, would be beget esteem, confidence, union and love; and

the neighbor from any state, or from any country, of whatever color, clime or tongue,

could rejoice when he put his foot on the sacred soil of freedom, and exclaim; the

very name of "America," is fraught with friendship!

He shares my view of banking practices here:

For the accommadation of the people in every state and territory, let Congress shew

their wisdom by granting a national bank, with branches in each state and territory,

where the capital stock shall be held by the nation for the mother bank; and by the

states and territories, for the branches; and whose officers and directors shall be

elected yearly by the people with wages at the rate of two dollars per day for

services; which several banks shall never issue any more bills than the amount of

capital stock in her vaults and the interest. The nett gain of the mother bank shall

be applied the national revenue, and that of the branches to the states and

territories' revenues. And the bills shall be par throughout the nation, which will

mercifully cure that fatal disorder known in cities, as brokerage; and leave the

people's money in their own pockets.

This one mentions "speculating bankers or brokers" but not in tearing them down, but building the common people's security up:

Seventy years have done much for this goodly land; they have burst the chains of

oppression and monarch; and multiplied its inhabitants from two to twenty meillions;

with proportionate share of knowledge; keen enough to circumnavigate the globe; draw

the lightning from the clouds; and cope with all the crowned heads of the world. Then

why? Oh! why! will a once flourishing people not arise, pheonix like, over the

cinders of Martin Van Buren's power; and over the sinking fragments and smoking ruins

of other catamount politicians; and over the windfalls of Benton, Calhoun, Clay,

Wright, and a caravan of other equally unfortunate law debtors and cheerfully help to

spread a plaster and bind up the burnt, bleeding wounds of a sore but blessed country?

The southern people are hospitable and noble; they will help to rid so free a country

of every vestige of slavery, when ever they are assured of an equivalent for their

property. The country will be full of money and confidence, when a national bank of

twenty millions, and a state bank in every state, with a million or more, gives a tone

to monetary matters, and make a circulating medium as valuable in the purses of a

whole community, as in the coffers of a speculating banker or broker. the people may

have faults but they never should be trifled with.

 

[PearlWatson]

That was actually intended as a joke. I guess it wasn't funny and/or no one got it.

I've never heard Trout espousing on the virtues of practicing LDS faith as he does. I've never heard him criticize anyone for having different religious beliefs than him or for how others practice their religious beliefs or lack thereof. What I have heard is that as a result of very significant personal experiences he has faith in a higher power. Not in a way where he uses his experience to prove to me or you or anyone else that we must accept his beliefs as our own, just as a way of explaining how he has come to have faith. I have a lot of respect for the way he handles himself in that regard.

So now go ahead and quote several dozen jokes he's made that are disrespectful of other's faith then gloat about how you've torn me a new *******. I live for that ****.

What do you mean by "that?" The Osama thing was a joke or this quote was some kind of inside joke?:

I read the first sentence. I'm not interested in discussing anything with you. I reported your previous personal attack and I will report any post or rep comment you make in which you throw around childish insults at me. Have a nice life.

You seem to be defending something I never said occurred.
Maybe if you read my post again you could understand what I'm saying, I'm just failing to get my meaning across, or you don't care to understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Gameface]

What do you mean by "that?" The Osama thing was a joke or this quote was some kind of inside joke?:



You seem to be defending something I never said occurred.
Maybe if you read my post again you could understand what I'm saying, I'm just failing to get my meaning across, or you don't care to understand where I'm coming from.

I'm not sure why you quoted that last thing. Thriller was intentionally antagonizing me and gloating about proving points about what I said even though I admitted up front before he even questioned me the things he was so happy to claim victory over. He then went beyond the opinion I expressed and called me names (I'm not going to go back and look) based on the fact that I hadn't substantiated my opinions to his satisfaction. In fact, he was insistent that I was asserting that a grand conspiracy had taken place within the LDS church in which as an organization the LDS church had selected the winner of the primary and used their members votes at the churches direct discretion. When in fact what I had said was that I don't participate in local elections because I figure whomever the influential power brokers within the LDS faith (not necessarily holding official positions within the church) decide would get the support (see OneBrow's post) needed to win would in fact eventually win.

So, I reported Thriller for calling me names in a malicious way. I'll do it again if he calls me names again. I like thriller less than any other poster who has ever posted here. In the few exchanges I've had with him he gets hyper freaked out and demands I satisfy some criteria he has (that I usually don't think even matters) while neg repping me with statements about how bad he's embarassing me in the thread and how stupid I must feel that it was so easy for him to make me look foolish.

My "joke" was saying Trout was like Osama Bin Laden and appealing for sympathy for Trout based on that comparison. Yeah, not funny I guess.

 

[franklin]

The first quote had to do with church authority in the Utah Territory when separated from any nation, no?

Sorry for forgetting to respond to this.

I've made that distinction at times myself but don't see it as applicable here. These plucked sections were regarding governments in general and not directed at the territory as the rest of the document was.

The second quote seems to fit as opposition. It addresses "measures," to stop the accumulation of riches in the hands of a few, but a lot depends on what they mean by those "measures." Also Benson is anti-communism while recognizing that those who are in charge of communism ain't going to be redistributing their own wealth, so it could just be they are on the same side of the equation.

I've found James Madison's sentiment to generally be a respect for both property rights and protecting the poor from exploitation by the wealthy. We get overloaded with quotes regarding the former with nearly zero focus on the latter. It's my belief that early LDS thought was in line and focused largely on protecting against controlling levels of wealth while still respecting and promoting industriousness.

On a related note, the issue I have with the left today is their seeming desire to promote a wide base of lazy leeches & not outright opposition to them ant to help those in need through government programs.

Abraham Lincoln ain't a Mormon unless you count posthumously.

Yes but I found the quote to be in line with LDS sentiment from 1850-1900 or so. Also, LDS hold a reverence for the founding of America and also president Lincoln. Quotes from these people tend to ring true.


At the end of the day, you can always read the Book of Mormon which has a constant focus on the detriments and evils of inequality. It's not uncommon to hear staunch LDS members promote the exact opposite these days--wealth and statues are now written off as jobs creating programs.

 

[TroutBum]

Seriously, if all Mormons were like me, we'd really be going places. Thank Gordon I didn't go on a mission, or I might've started my world domination a lot earlier.

 

[PearlWatson]

I'm not sure why you quoted that last thing.

....He then went beyond the opinion I expressed and called me names ....So, I reported Thriller for calling me names in a malicious way. I'll do it again if he calls me names again. I like thriller less than any other poster who has ever posted here.

My "joke" was saying Trout was like Osama Bin Laden and appealing for sympathy for Trout based on that comparison. Yeah, not funny I guess.

I quoted it because it was what I was talking about. You recognize Thriller as a "malicious" bully because his behavior was directed at you, but can't see it when similar behavior is directed at someone else. I guess that is human nature, not just a weakness of yours, though.

 

[Gameface]

I quoted it because it was what I was talking about. You recognize Thriller as a "malicious" bully because his behavior was directed at you, but can't see it when similar behavior is directed at someone else. I guess that is human nature, not just a weakness of yours, though.

I like trout and think he's funny most of the time. I do see times when he bullies. I don't endorse the way he goes after people like Millsapa and BluesRocker. That stuff is on him and between him and them to work out.

Honestly, that was part of the joke.

 

[Fishsticks]

I always envisioned craig2112 as the poster child for Zionist Mormon.

 

[PearlWatson]

I've made that distinction at times myself but don't see it as applicable here. These plucked sections were regarding governments in general and not directed at the territory as the rest of the document was.

You say the plucked sections were regarding government in general but Brigham Young was church and territorial authority wrapped in one and his quote talks about kicking people out of the church and confiscating their crop if they do not pursue a "righteous course." Are you really trying to generalize that to mean the national government should confiscate property if "the rich" don't use it "righteously?"

If you do not pursue a righteous course, we will separate you from the Church. Is that all? No. If necessary we will take your grain from your bin and distribute it among the poor and needy, and they shall be fed and supplied with work, and you shall receive what your grain is worth.
--Brigham Young, 1855

I've found James Madison's sentiment to generally be a respect for both property rights and protecting the poor from exploitation by the wealthy. We get overloaded with quotes regarding the former with nearly zero focus on the latter. It's my belief that early LDS thought was in line and focused largely on protecting against controlling levels of wealth while still respecting and promoting industriousness.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "controlling levels of wealth" or if there was such a thing how it would be protected against. Do they recognize their own church assets and businesses as "controlling levels of wealth?"
I thought prosperity was always celebrated among the LDS as a means of charity; that if one sought the kingdom of God first...pay tithes and offerings...that it was fine to pursue what one wanted.

On a related note, the issue I have with the left today is their seeming desire to promote a wide base of lazy leeches & not outright opposition to them ant to help those in need through government programs.

That's how they pursue votes.

Yes but I found the quote to be in line with LDS sentiment from 1850-1900 or so. Also, LDS hold a reverence for the founding of America and also president Lincoln. Quotes from these people tend to ring true.
At the end of the day, you can always read the Book of Mormon which has a constant focus on the detriments and evils of inequality. It's not uncommon to hear staunch LDS members promote the exact opposite these days--wealth and statues are now written off as jobs creating programs.

That's pretty funny that they would love Lincoln when he considered their practice of polygamy to be comparable to slavery...most likely modern Mormons agree with him, though.

Do you have any specific BofM "detriments and evils of inequality" quotes?

I'm sure Mormons had different economic concerns in the 1800s than they did in Benson's time and their speeches reflected that, but that doesn't negate the genius of his speech on the Proper Role of Government.
I appreciate that you want to present the other side of the argument or challenge conservatives on the ideas, though.

 

[PearlWatson]

I like trout and think he's funny most of the time. I do see times when he bullies. I don't endorse the way he goes after people like Millsapa and BluesRocker. That stuff is on him and between him and them to work out.

Honestly, that was part of the joke.

It is making more sense now.

 

[franklin]

You say the plucked sections were regarding government in general but Brigham Young was church and territorial authority wrapped in one and his quote talks about kicking people out of the church and confiscating their crop if they do not pursue a "righteous course." Are you really trying to generalize that to mean the national government should confiscate property if "the rich" don't use it "righteously?"

Sorry, I got things mixed up a little. The quote I was thinking of is below. Read the entire original (OSC in 2008 Des News) if you'd like to understand babe's views on co-ops, unions, ground level stuff, etc.

I think your point about being in a territory is moot. He was speaking specifically to his LDS audience but also as a governor threatening to confiscate if necessary. It could be taken either way.

The experience of mankind has shown that the people of communities and nations among whom wealth is the most equally distributed, enjoy the largest degree of liberty, are the least exposed to tyranny and oppression and suffer the least from luxurious habits which beget vice. Under such a system, carefully maintained there could be no great aggregations of either real or personal property in the hands of a few; especially so while the laws, forbidding the taking of usury or interest for money or property loaned, continued in force.

One of the great evils with which our own nation is menaced at the present time is the wonderful growth of wealth in the hands of a comparatively few individuals. The very liberties for which our fathers contended so steadfastly and courageously, and which they bequeathed to us as a priceless legacy, are endangered by the monstrous power which this accumulation of wealth gives to a few individuals and a few powerful corporations. By its seductive influence results are accomplished which, were it more equally distributed, would be impossible under our form of government. It threatens to give shape to the legislation, both State and National, of the entire country. If this evil should not be checked, and measures not taken to prevent the continued enormous growth of riches among the class already rich, and the painful increase of destitution and want among the poor, the nation is likely to be overtaken by disaster; for, according to history, such a tendency among nations once powerful was the sure precursor of ruin.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "controlling levels of wealth" or if there was such a thing how it would be protected against. Do they recognize their own church assets and businesses as "controlling levels of wealth?"
I thought prosperity was always celebrated among the LDS as a means of charity; that if one sought the kingdom of God first...pay tithes and offerings...that it was fine to pursue what one wanted.

What I mean by controlling levels of wealth is our currently bought and paid for legilslature, media, everything. We can also look at the prior model and think of The King's Forest. Nobody is free when a few barons and kings own everything and allow us to work their land under their terms. I'd love to be a libertarian, confortable knowing people can actually control against this through their own actions but reality is it is not the case. Libertarianism is just as much a false utopia as communism is.

That's pretty funny that they would love Lincoln when he considered their practice of polygamy to be comparable to slavery...most likely modern Mormons agree with him, though.

I don't know what they thought of him back then. I was speaking in a modern sense there. There's a quote out there which I can't recall exactly that praises Lincoln.

Do you have any specific BofM "detriments and evils of inequality" quotes?

Maybe Spazz, Colton, or Gibbs can chime in here. Trust me, it's a major theme.