Ouside the Box Idea for changing PG roles

[Game6Conley]

ive not read 1 legitimate argument of why burks isnt lead guard material, i personally see more flaws in his game at "off-guard" then i do at lead.

(hes been listed at pg all year)

i see him able to get 4.5+ assists per game when he finally gets consistent minutes, (may take a year, or 2[a.k.a. forever]).
like ive said from my first post, by the time hes 23, he will be ready for linsanity-style play. which is.

'11-'12 NY 26.9MPG, 4.9-10.9FG's, 0.7-2.1 3pt, 4.2-5.2FT's 3.1REBs 6.2AST's, 1.6STL's, 3.6TO's, 14.6PPG

i think its a great comparison. though, i expect a better 3point shooter, rebounder, and less assists

 

[franklin]

Chicago Bulls played Ron Harper at "point guard," but yeah, that was Phil Jackson's triangle, which we have no clue how to run.

It's good to have a player on the floor who can play natural PG even if we run a 2-guard front. It gives the team a lot more flexibility.

Corbin knows the triangle (played in it IIRC).

The problem with the triangle has always been the time needed to implement it & dynamic players. Look at what happened to Mike Brown's attempt to implement it's cousin. He even brought in Eddie Jordan to do so, who learned Princeton from Pete Carril and implemented it other places. Lakers fired him because they weren't patient enough.

The triangle didn't work in Chicago for several years prior to Phil Jackson, who was lucky enough to have the talent to push it and make it famous. LA had enough continuity and talent to make it work. Both teams (mostly lakers) benefited from dynamic players like Odom, Horry, Gasol, & Pippen who could play multiple offensive roles.

The one revolutionary thing I think Popovich has done is borrow the interchangeable spots of the triangle with his interchangeable high-low post game. The only other thing he really does better than other coaches is gets the players to play hard every single play. It doesn't hurt that Duncan leads by example and Tony Parker is a damn energizer bunny the entire game. Nor does it hurt that they consistently get dynamic offensive scorers that nobody else seems to want. The majority of his success lies on Tim Duncan and Tony Parker (who will be a first ballot HOFer, mark it) spreading the floor and assassinating defenses.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Looking at Foye, Burks, Hayward, Mo, can the point guard and shooting guard positions be merged into 2 interchangeable positions? Should they be? Has it been done before? TIA.

You may recall the Jazz losing in the finals to a team that started Michael Jordan and Ron Harper in the back court.

 

[billyshelby]

Somebody has to be the primary ballhandler. That's the guy who gets the team into sets, reads defenses to exploit mismatches, can initiate offense when he has to, and initiates a lot of offense just because he can. Deron wasn't just great in our system, he created points on the floor when the system broke down.

Lots of teams aren't PG dominant, but they have the Brandon Roy or Kobe or Lebron to make it work. Aside from Burks, who is far from ready and may never get to the mountaintop, we have a bunch of guys who don't have the skills to be a primary ballhandler. No system will account for not having that one guy unless it's a lights out defensive team.

 

[Game6Conley]

Everyones way too stressed about individual players and individual roles.
call me crazy, but its a team game, we do this together, united.

chemistry... isnt the idea of Team to have a greater sum of what the parts can produce by themselves.

talk to me about the flaws of burks or jefferson, but your singling them out. everything has flaws.

ever heard this one?

“Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without one.”
-Chinese Proverb

 

[Dr. Jones]

Everyones way too stressed about individual players and individual roles.
call me crazy, but its a team game, we do this together, united.

I think there are plenty of people here that think we have great pieces but missing one or two others. Your description above is a mischaracterization of those feelings.

 

[franklin]

Somebody has to be the primary ballhandler. That's the guy who gets the team into sets, reads defenses to exploit mismatches, can initiate offense when he has to, and initiates a lot of offense just because he can. Deron wasn't just great in our system, he created points on the floor when the system broke down.

Lots of teams aren't PG dominant, but they have the Brandon Roy or Kobe or Lebron to make it work. Aside from Burks, who is far from ready and may never get to the mountaintop, we have a bunch of guys who don't have the skills to be a primary ballhandler. No system will account for not having that one guy unless it's a lights out defensive team.

And yet you've bitched plenty about Corbin being the problem for stagnation. I don't get it when one poor pass is all it takes to dice an offense. I only say this because you're one of the very few posters I respect for understanding basketball offenses or trying to. What do you think Corbin should do to squeeze the most out of the talent gap? I think everyone agrees that Jefferson post ball isn't it.

 

[Game6Conley]

I think there are plenty of people here that think we have great pieces but missing one or two others. Your description above is a mischaracterization of those feelings.

if we have great pieces, the point of the proverb is IF we have a rough diamond here& Not a bunch of pebbles - that we shouldnt be trying to swap them for better, more perfect pebbles.

(some have characterized these last few years as a waste, imho. thats obtuse and mundane)

IF im wrong and we dont have a rough diamond here, and we do have pebbles& need to find better ones, new chemistry... Now is not the time, here at the deadline... with western conference teams, while were almost the 6seed.

the braintrust would make its coup during the draft. whos got more quality rookie contracts than us?[how else are teams gonna justify trading those high picks in good drafts... ill tell ya, theyd be trading those picks for a more developed restricted rookie contract]) gms do desperate things in the nba, the jazz are gonna catch one, again.

the recent hysteria about blesdoe here just confirms the above thesis, to me, hook line and sinker... wait till we move a few of these kids for the rights to andrew harrison. or wiggins, or shabazz,

(we CAN move 2 or 3 kids + a pick for 1 cant-miss prospect, 'cant-miss' prospects have been traded before. they will be traded again).

why else would the kids be put on such a leash, if not to either inspire them not to mess up, ever. or sit them when they make mistakes so they dont reveal their flaws consistently, and keep their "value".

so i believe us to be incredibly, remarkably, flexible right now, (even with signing al) and everywhere i look, i see tension.

Tyrone and the FO cant be that bad if theyve gotten us this far.

 

[Dr. Jones]

 

[Game6Conley]

i thought this was the outside the box thread! im brainstorming!

 

[Dr. Jones]

i thought this was the outside the box thread! im brainstorming!

I like your posts. Stick around.

 

[Game6Conley]

im clueless right. and my english is terrible. and i couldent snatch something out of your hand if i tried... right? sure.

you disagree, but where is your reasoning? id have characterize your response as baseless until you rain down almighty knowledge.

im not stubborn, ive been wrong before, ill be wrong again, infact im easily convinced, if it sounds legit.

but id bet the "base" im searching for in the Al, and Ty, and No-Trades ZOMG, and K.O'Lindsey, and PG_AB, 'disputes' on this site are actually more based in conspiracy than semantics.

 

[Dr. Jones]

im clueless right. and my english is terrible. and i couldent snatch something out of your hand if i tried... right? sure.

you disagree, but where is your reasoning? id have characterize your response as baseless until you rain down almighty knowledge.

im not stubborn, ive been wrong before, ill be wrong again, infact im easily convinced, if it sounds legit.

but id bet the "base" im searching for in the Al, and Ty, and No-Trades ZOMG, and K.O'Lindsey, and PG_AB, 'disputes' on this site are actually more based in conspiracy than semantics.

Actually, I said I like your posts and to stick around. Again, that was sincere. My pics were just making fun of the pebbles/diamonds analogies, that's all.
You're a good poster. Don't be so defensive.

 

[Game6Conley]

Actually, I said I like your posts and to stick around. Again, that was sincere. My pics were just making fun of the pebbles/diamonds analogies, that's all.
You're a good poster. Don't be so defensive.

that wasn't in response to your last post, it was a 2nd, more angry and drunken response to the pictures.

anyway im misbehaved on basketball forums, id be lying if i said my interactions on certain basketball/knicks forums weren't the chief reason i jumped ship from my childhood team that i followed religiously.

what was going on with the team, coaches, owner, sucked... but those punches come so hard and fast as a knicks fan you become numb. what really took the wind out of my sails was, id talk lots in the draft threads or on other players in game threads and stuff, id really take the sides of stuff i thought.

like for the knicks, drafting a pg(especially in 09) was a personal crusade of mine. our 3 lotto picks all those years were Channing Frye(over bynum, granger) and Jordan Hill(over jennings, derozan, lawson, holliday) and Gallinari over brook lopez .(literally the whole board chastised me over siding with the nets lopez over gallinari)
and id talk mad ****, i was young but years passed and i was still bitter.

it was a viscous vindictive cycle(i still dont like bulls fans, that boozer game recently pissed me off, especially). i quit playing fantasy sports for a similar reason. makes you almost wanna side with the enemy.

so i kind of did, BUT it felt right because i generally hate most knicks fans, they know nothing about their own teams. i was a die-hard. i repped eddy curry and jamal crawford(nate + D.Lee) because they were our best players, not because they were great.

i knew it was time to go when the knicks got tyson chandler. not because of anything about him specifically, the cap was compromised 90% on 3 players longterm, no guards + bandwagonners were crawling out of the woodwork asking about my beloved knicks everywhere, i was skeptical i said i thought theyd be a .500 team until they proved otherwise (went 42-40 last year), people called me a hater and laughed at me, thats when i hit the point of no return.

at the time i officially declared my allegiance to the jazz, it was the day after the tyson chandler trade. that day i went to see the vegas odds, last year they moved the knicks up from 45:1 to 15:1 to win the championship... the knicks.. 15:1... last year... to win it all..

(the jazz were 150:1) and i prefered their bigman roto, that they didnt spend 90% of the cap on (al, paul, favors, kanter). picking a really good team is not my style, but i searched and settled with the jazz. glad i did. unexpected **** happens, you gotta be an optimist about your team, its not a serious enough thing, not to be. (/end rant)

 

[illyasova]

Looking at Foye, Burks, Hayward, Mo, can the point guard and shooting guard positions be merged into 2 interchangeable positions? Should they be? Has it been done before? TIA.

If you are talking about this year, Corbin is gonna go ahead the strategy ( If he really has one) as the same way. For the next year, none of the PGs are ideal solution for this team. Burks is not the PG, Mo is undersized SG, no need to mention about Foye and Hayward can play the role due to the matchups or game strategy not the extended min. So we need a PG for sure for the next year.

 

[Game6Conley]

illyasova, when you say he will continue the same strategy. are you saying burks will be sat down once mo's healthy?

and everyone around here generally agrees that burks isnt the savior of PG's, let me pose the question this way

Can the Troika; Hayward Foye and Burks combine their powers (like captain planet) to form a proficient back-court?

(and integrate mo back in before the playoffs)

i vote YES, call me naive, but we crushed OKC with watson and tinsley playing 25+mins, i like my chances much better with the troika, and eagerly await their next appearance.

 

[illyasova]

illyasova, when you say he will continue the same strategy. are you saying burks will be sat down once mo's healthy?

and everyone around here generally agrees that burks isnt the savior of PG's, let me pose the question this way



(and integrate mo back in before the playoffs)

i vote YES, call me naive, but we crushed OKC with watson and tinsley playing 25+mins, i like my chances much better with the troika, and eagerly await their next appearance.

Yea once MO heals and ready to go, iam sure Burks will be sat down by Corbin and no way the troika of Hayward, Foye and Burks are enough to be counted proficient back-court. Foye and Burks are good back up players for the contenders nothing more. Hayward is true glue guy who will never be a star but useful player and 3rd option for a team.

 

[Game6Conley]

Yea once MO heals and ready to go, iam sure Burks will be sat down by Corbin and no way the troika of Hayward, Foye and Burks are enough to be counted proficient back-court. Foye and Burks are good back up players for the contenders nothing more. Hayward is true glue guy who will never be a star but useful player and 3rd option for a team.

i fear you maybe right about burks minutes, so im going to enjoy them now. im really hopeful he can have another 20pt or 7ast game again soon, on low turnovers. or do something spectacular during 'winning time' to continue winning over fans and the coaches

my gut tells me he gets 20+mins when mo's back(rest the old guys), his minutes in crunch-time make me believe... thats gotta be an indicator of something.

also i fear you maybe right about the troika not being proficient, what im certain of is they will at least provide the bigs way more space than our options last year. (freaking 0-13 from 3, game 4 of the sweep last year.... )

i am a bit more optimistic about the proficiency of the troika vs the league, not for any great reason better then simply i think they fit.

Foye was in a viscous college troika at villanova but played the glue/hayward role, im hoping he can show some of that combo guard prowess that got him drafted 6th, either way if he shoots 40% 3's on high volume, thats way above his pay-grade.

heres the last of my outside the box thinking. our guards are better than last year, clearly. devin the despondent is gone. our bigs are definitely better, with the biggest improvements from last year being kanters emergence as a dynamo 4th big and al has stopped going back to the basket as much (pretty sure locke said he had 8 back to the basket plays per game last year, now its 5.)

last year we were, 150:1 to win it all, this year we are 150:1, now obviously the fields changed too but i think that our improvements from last year are going unnoticed not only by the national media, but by vegas aswell. theres nothing like a good underdog story, at 150:1 the jazz scream undervalued to me. also our 2 highest paid players will be playing their best for a contract... were definitely way more dangerous this year, plus we have a bad taste in our mouth over that series.