Peaceful protest over Charlie Hebdo in Chechnya

[addictionary]

Thanks

Anytime bro.

 

[Stoked]

I wish you knew the social environment these people lived in. You would think exactly the opposite. Religious leaders' words are everything for those people. They have the horses in the uprising of the suicide bombings. It's impossible not to listen to them for many of those people. They feel subconsciously choiceless.

I have no reason to doubt that is the case. But the taint of these people (the extremists and not Muslims in general) goes far beyond a few dictators. If you chop down one another prings up in his place.

My point is that it is more complicated then just some dictators funding groups and if we stopped that, and them, this would go away. Which is what I felt Dala's post implied.

 

[♪alt13]

ISIS decapitates anyone who doesn't join them or aid them. They are the least essence-of-Islamic-faith-based group I have ever seen. I doubt that they are given rise by anyone but some intelligence web.

Or a Wahabiist Kingdom, maybe? Saudi funded Madrasas spread this ideology.

We all can help combat the funding(use less oil) but Muslims have to combat the ideology.

Edit:Ultimately if we are going to beat this lunacy it will be by defeating its ideas. The only people that can do that are Muslims.

 

[addictionary]

I have no reason to doubt that is the case. But the taint of these people (the extremists and not Muslims in general) goes far beyond a few dictators. If you chop down one another prings up in his place.

My point is that it is more complicated then just some dictators funding groups and if we stopped that, and them, this would go away. Which is what I felt Dala's post implied.

I wasn't talking about dictators like Kaddafi or Saddam. The Middle Eastern societies are a lot less developed. They are not really industrialized as much as you think. Traditionalist society's every aspect lives in their dynamics that frame their understanding of the world. In those rural places, each of them hace their certain religious leaders. They represent a certain tarikat (way of Islam). There are loads of them. These are like sub existences of sects. The people in sone rural Islamic areas are like the servants of their shaik's word, as he is considered not only as a sacred high being, but also one to be feared with much organization and power he holds. Even most of the local governments and mayors are at his service in the hierarchy. It is a centuries old system, that survived through many states. And it is the fundamental reason behind people's choicelessness. They exist in that system. They earn from it. Sacrifice for it. They are it. I cannot speak for all of the religious leaders as leading their local folk to an unpleasant fate, but as a system, they all have power over their people. I imagine people without them would be more willing to participate in what their central government has to offer, mainly education and national ideology. More meritocracy. That would gain them access to a better understanding of how the world works, embrace multiculturalism.

 

[Stoked]

I wasn't talking about dictators like Kaddafi or Saddam. The Middle Eastern societies are a lot less developed. They are not really industrialized as much as you think. Traditionalist society's every aspect lives in their dynamics that frame their understanding of the world. In those rural places, each of them hace their certain religious leaders. They represent a certain tarikat (way of Islam). There are loads of them. These are like sub existences of sects. The people in sone rural Islamic areas are like the servants of their shaik's word, as he is considered not only as a sacred high being, but also one to be feared with much organization and power he holds. Even most of the local governments and mayors are at his service in the hierarchy. It is a centuries old system, that survived through many states. And it is the fundamental reason behind people's choicelessness. They exist in that system. They earn from it. Sacrifice for it. They are it. I cannot speak for all of the religious leaders as leading their local folk to an unpleasant fate, but as a system, they all have power over their people. I imagine people without them would be more willing to participate in what their central government has to offer, mainly education and national ideology. More meritocracy. That would gain them access to a better understanding of how the world works, embrace multiculturalism.

Oh ok, but that is what my post is in reference to. All I see in your post is a much more in depth assertion of my own position.

Thanks for the insight. Insight is always helpful.

 

[addictionary]

Or a Wahabiist Kingdom, maybe? Saudi funded Madrasas spread this ideology.

We all can help combat the funding(use less oil) but Muslims have to combat the ideology.

Edit:Ultimately if we are going to beat this lunacy it will be by defeating its ideas. The only people that can do that are Muslims.

I totally agree. If Ottomans joined the party and invaded some part of the new world, maybe Islam would live through a Reform like the Christianity too. Heck, Christianity would look darker than Islam if they have not went through the Reform process and all the enlightenment that followed.

I think it is not about what religion it is, it is about how you comprehend and practice it. The Islamic leader of Baghdad during Crusades was a much much more civilized man with opening arms to multiculturalism in his country.

And you know what the beautiful and non demolished Baghdad's famous nickname was back then? "The City of Peace".

 

[♪alt13]

I totally agree. If Ottomans joined the party and invaded some part of the new world, maybe Islam would live through a Reform like the Christianity too. Heck, Christianity would look darker than Islam if they have not went through the Reform process and all the enlightenment that followed.

I think it is not about what religion it is, it is about how you comprehend and practice it. The Islamic leader of Baghdad during Crusades was a much much more civilized man with opening arms to multiculturalism in his country.

And you know what the beautiful and non demolished Baghdad's famous nickname was back then? "The City of Peace".

Irony?

The Ottoman sack of Constantinople was at least part of the motivation for Europeans to find a new route to the far east.

Also

I can't imagine the Ottomans getting all the way through the Mediterranean and then past the Spanish through the straits of Gibraltar. It really just wasn't an option for them due to geography.

 

[LogGrad98]

Much more scary ( and real ) is what M.Gaddafi said once - "We ( muslims) do not need terrorists, bombs or war to conquer Western world. All we need is our men to marry their women". Its working, see this chart for example:

Safe to say by 2090 most of European countries will be dominated by Muslim majority.

I was in Leipzig Germany last week, and in Berlin during one of the big counter-protests there. There have been a lot of protests in Germany, with promises of weekly protests every Monday in some major cities, wherein folks are protesting the "islamification" of Germany. Then there are counter-protests because this hearkens to the extremism that fed Naziism.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/13/angela-merkel-muslim-berlin-rally-pegida

And here is a picture I took at Brandenburger Gate during the counter-protest in the link.

There was another protest/counter-protest in Leipzig last Monday but we slept through most of it with jetlag.

This is a very polarizing subject in Germany. I was at church on Sunday before the protests and even there the conversation was split, with more than a few members espousing the ousting of all muslims from Germany.

 

[addictionary]

Irony?

The Ottoman sack of Constantinople was at least part of the motivation for Europeans to find a new route to the far east.

Also

I can't imagine the Ottomans getting all the way through the Mediterranean and then past the Spanish through the straits of Gibraltar. It really just wasn't an option for them due to geography.

Yeah, I mean obviously I gave a ridiculously sole theoretical example in there. There was a big gap of vision between the ones who decided to get there and who did not. As far as I know, the already strong Empire of the time had refused sharp and revolutionist inventions and used Islamic taboos that were not actually there as excuses. There was a time this religion was the pioneer of medival and philosophical development. It is about how you apply the religion.

 

[♪alt13]

I was in Leipzig Germany last week, and in Berlin during one of the big counter-protests there. There have been a lot of protests in Germany, with promises of weekly protests every Monday in some major cities, wherein folks are protesting the "islamification" of Germany. Then there are counter-protests because this hearkens to the extremism that fed Naziism.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/13/angela-merkel-muslim-berlin-rally-pegida

And here is a picture I took at Brandenburger Gate during the counter-protest in the link.


There was another protest/counter-protest in Leipzig last Monday but we slept through most of it with jetlag.

This is a very polarizing subject in Germany. I was at church on Sunday before the protests and even there the conversation was split, with more than a few members espousing the ousting of all muslims from Germany.

UH somebody needed to pay better attention in their history class. They know America is much much stronger than we once were, right? They know that we all grew up with the images of Germans putting people on trains and that we connect that with the ultimate evil, right? Please tell me that by more than a few you mean 5 out of several hundred.