Per 36 of the C4 and projections.

[vslice02]

When was the last time a team had 4 players average above 17 ppg? Has that ever happened? Has 15 ever happened?

4 players averaging 15 pts or more per game has happened a bazillion times throughout NBA history. 4 at 17pts is obviously rarer but not unheard of - the D'Antoni/Nash era Suns definitely did it to name one although obviously they played at a faster pace.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Why not? That is almost exactly the growth factor that Paul millsap had from his third season to the best year of his career. Check it out here: https://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXmXXmillspa01.html&t=3

Let's say you take out Jefferson and Millsap, that is taking away 33 ppg from the team. Even if you assume all those ppg go to the C4, that even wouldn't put them over 17 pg for each player. Then you add in the fact those points are going to go to new players brought into replace roster spots and so forth.

I think a more realistic expectation would be something like:

Hayward 17 ppg
Burks 15 ppg
Favors 12 ppg
Kanter 12 ppg

 

[nightmare3983]

The Bill Russell Celtics had 4 or more players scoring 15 PPG or more multiple years.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

4 players averaging 15 pts or more per game has happened a bazillion times throughout NBA history. 4 at 17pts is obviously rarer but not unheard of - the D'Antoni/Nash era Suns definitely did it to name one.

I should have thought about the Suns. Obviously you have to have an extremely high scoring/uptempo offense to do this. They even almost had 5 over 15 ppg in 06-07.

 

[b_line]

I think these numbers might be a little high. I'm glad Cy brought up the point about 4 players over 17ppg.

This is what I see:

Hayward: 20 PPG, 4 RPG, 5 APG

Favors: 14 PPG, 11 RPG, 2.5 BPG

Kanter: 18 PPG, 12 RPG, 2.5 APG

Burks: 19 PPG, 6 RPG, 3 APG

I think some of those numbers might be a little high. A lot of these numbers will fluctuate based on this upcoming draft.

Those numbers are pretty similar to mine. The only thing I would is that I think favors will end up being a player who COULD average 18 ppg but will probably end up getting 12-14 because he will be focused on defense. I see burks getting like 16, 4 and 4. I think you are spot on with Hayward though. 20 ppg is probably his ceiling.

 

[nightmare3983]

The Bill Russell Celtics had 4 or more players scoring 15 PPG or more multiple years.

As did the Showtime Lakers.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

So the Suns hit 4 with over 17 once, almost twice (Marbury's last year).

 

[b_line]

So the Suns hit 4 with over 17 once, almost twice (Marbury's last year).

I don't think the jazz will have four players like this. I think we are going to have a better defense than what we have now, if only due to the fact that every member of the C4 is better defensively than the player they will replace. I think all of these players have the potential to be great, and we will probably have three all stars at some point, but four players getting enough touches to be all stars is a lot to ask.

 

[nightmare3983]

Not the same thing we're talking about, but in 90-91 Run TMC on the Warriors each averaged at least 22.9 PPG.

 

[b_line]

Not the same thing we're talking about, but in 90-91 Run TMC on the Warriors each averaged at least 22.9 PPG.

Wow. I had forgotten how good they were. Probably because I was so young at that point and really only remember Chris mullin. That's pretty impressive

 

[vj_74]

There is not really a "Detroit model" of winning a championship. They were an outlier at best. And maybe a Malone knee injury away from not winning it all

I cant believe that even the new guy on the job, Lindsey, is trying to sell the same BS about Jazz going after a Pistons model. There is no such model. It was a one time thing.
There is no model for a team having developed 4 lotto picks on their own into 4 very good players(but not stars or superstars) and winning it all.

Plus,People also forget that the Pistons pulled a major mid-season trade to get Rasheed which was the turning point. Will the Jazz ever do that?

Also, even if they didnt have any offfensive superstars they had multiple NBA defensive player of the year champion in Ben and several other defensive specialists who can play D at a high level. In other words, they had several stars aligned in the right way. Good luck emulating that

 

[b_line]

There is not really a "Detroit model" of winning a championship. They were an outlier at best. And maybe a Malone knee injury away from not winning it all

I cant believe that even the new guy on the job, Lindsey, is trying to sell the same BS about Jazz going after a Pistons model. There is no such model. It was a one time thing.
There is no model for a team having developed 4 lotto picks on their own into 4 very good players(but not stars or superstars) and winning it all.

Plus,People also forget that the Pistons pulled a major mid-season trade to get Rasheed which was the turning point. Will the Jazz ever do that?

Also, even if they didnt have any offfensive superstars they had multiple NBA defensive player of the year champion in Ben and several other defensive specialists who can play D at a high level. In other words, they had several stars aligned in the right way. Good luck emulating that

Favors is already pretty decent defensively with limited minutes. Hayward plays some darn god defense too, as does demarre, and burks defense is coming on. I don't think any team should try to copy the exact model of another team, but it is pretty clear out you g guys have a chance to develop into something special.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

There is not really a "Detroit model" of winning a championship. They were an outlier at best. And maybe a Malone knee injury away from not winning it all

I cant believe that even the new guy on the job, Lindsey, is trying to sell the same BS about Jazz going after a Pistons model. There is no such model. It was a one time thing.
There is no model for a team having developed 4 lotto picks on their own into 4 very good players(but not stars or superstars) and winning it all.

Plus,People also forget that the Pistons pulled a major mid-season trade to get Rasheed which was the turning point. Will the Jazz ever do that?

Also, even if they didnt have any offfensive superstars they had multiple NBA defensive player of the year champion in Ben and several other defensive specialists who can play D at a high level. In other words, they had several stars aligned in the right way. Good luck emulating that

Pretty much every model outside of drafting a superstar is an outlier. We have to try what we have the best shot at accomplishing.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I don't think the jazz will have four players like this. I think we are going to have a better defense than what we have now, if only due to the fact that every member of the C4 is better defensively than the player they will replace. I think all of these players have the potential to be great, and we will probably have three all stars at some point, but four players getting enough touches to be all stars is a lot to ask.

I think it has less to do with the players you have, but the tempo you run. Obviously you have to have talented players, but I think more teams could reach those #'s if they ran offenses like D'Antoni Suns. I think you put Favors, Burks, Hayward, and Kanter alongside Nash with D'Antoni and at least 3 of them along with Nash would put up 15 ppg.

 

[addictionary]

I believe Favors and Enes will have a bigger gap in PPG than 1 as they reach their primes. I also think Burks will become a star in this league. But unless they stop benching him stupidly at times, that could change.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Oh.

Ok. So lets wait 10+ years for this team to actually compete for a championship? Maybe we should start rebuilding/developing these guys? Maybe work towards that championship?

All the more reason why we should have traded away Millsap/Jefferson. And why the hell are we still starting the old farts at point?

How long did Stockton and Malone have to wait before actually competing for a Championship? 10+ years of being together, right? **** doesn't happen overnight.

 

[fishonjazz]

Not the same thing we're talking about, but in 90-91 Run TMC on the Warriors each averaged at least 22.9 PPG.

I loved tim hardaway......one of my favorite players of all time.

 

[b_line]

Pretty much every model outside of drafting a superstar is an outlier. We have to try what we have the best shot at accomplishing.

How long did Stockton and Malone have to wait before actually competing for a Championship? 10+ years of being together, right? **** doesn't happen overnight.

It was like seven years together for them to be considered contenders, and more than ten years for them to reach the finals. If they would have had another you g guy to grow with, it might have been a little sooner, but not much.
The only reason the teams become contenders so quickly now (okc) is because the generation before them was terrible. They had a few great players, but nothing like the 90's. also, teams are harder to keep intact these days.

 

[orangello]

I'd point out that the "Detroit" model is more of an outlier than the "OKC" model.

 

[b_line]

I'd point out that the "Detroit" model is more of an outlier than the "OKC" model.

Why? There are way more good players in the league than there are superstars, so it is more conceivable to be successful at being like Detroit than any other champion. Also, what about the celtics? They lacked a true superstar in their championship run as well. Garnett is just a more sane sheed. Pierce is better than rip or prince, but he is not Kobe or lebron.