Police Power and Racial Tensions in Ferguson, Missouri

[One Brow]

I agree with you there, but that is just a piece of the oppression pie. That alone will not stop blacks from being oppressed. And many of the programs intended to help poor blacks (welfare, affirmative action, etc.) actually have the opposite effect.

If you compared starvation rates before and after welfare, it's hard to argue that it made things worse. If you argue employment rates before and after affirmative action, it's again hard to argue it made things worse. Reducing the number of criminal convictions will improve many things, starting with employment.

 

[One Brow]

I agree. That **** costs money though. Tax payer money.

Perhaps some of the money spent on riot gear could be diverted into cameras?

If Wilson was justified because Brown charged him, they could have released a tape (or at least promised to release a tape) showing this. Protests averted. If Wilson was not justified because Brown was not charging, they could also have had a quick response (immediate suspension, quick arrest), and avoided the riots.

 

[Stoked]

There really is evidence of this.

Poor black get treated worse than poor whites, and wealthy blacks get treated worse than wealthy whites. Class matters, but so does race.

No solutions will happen without awareness.

I feel that the awareness is there. People know that blacks suffer greater police scrutiny. They know they have a harder time in college acceptance and job interviews. They know that the income levels are skewed. So while that awareness is needed it is not enough.

Time for the next step. For me that is education.

 

[One Brow]

Edit: Also the arrests made by police are further fueling the tension and violence. This is proven to me by the escalation in violence. Such as the use of molotov cocktails, shootings and rocks being thrown at police. Those taking part in the violence can say whatever they want about the reasons but they have 0 credibility in my eyes. They ruined businesses, lives, property, the peaceful protests, the public and police opinions about the protests and tarnished this case even further. Shameful

I agreed with most of your post. However, most of the protesters seem to approve of the arrest of the violent people in their group. These protests started off being organized by local churches and politicians; they don't want violence any more than the police do. The issues is at least partly that there was a huge over-reaction on last Tuesday and Wednesday to the violence, which has poisoned the dialogue.

 

[One Brow]

If both Brown and Johnson cooperated with hands up, why did Wilson let Johnson live and shoot Brown then? If you are going to commit murder, why leave a key witness to your crime?

Why did the big guy get shot and the little guy not? Is it really that hard to fathom? Also, "going to commit murder" implies some sort of planning on Wilson's part; I don't think any such planning was involved.

 

[Stoked]

I agreed with most of your post. However, most of the protesters seem to approve of the arrest of the violent people in their group. These protests started off being organized by local churches and politicians; they don't want violence any more than the police do. The issues is at least partly that there was a huge over-reaction on last Tuesday and Wednesday to the violence, which has poisoned the dialogue.

We have gone over this. The violence started before the heavy handed police prescence. The police, when they did respond, did so disproportionally. Did the police reaction poison the dialouge? Yes but no more so then the start of violence. IMO at least.

Also I tried to distinguish between the peaceful protestors and those there for violence by saying "Those taking part in the violence...". I agree that they are not mutually inclusive.

 

[One Brow]

He was pissed of that a bunch of white guys were voicing their opinions on it at all.

Which is different from saying that white men are not allowed to have or voice opinions. You think your opinions are so good that they should never piss people off?

Also you mention regularly the systematic oppression suffered by minorities, particularly blacks, at the hands of police (we all know there are studies that show this, agreed). Wouldn't Michael Brown know this and wouldn't it affect his opinion and reactions to this police officer? Regardless of the value of the item he allegedly stole? Your comment about the cigaretts implies that he would ignore all of that and that it wouldn't affect his attitude. Maybe I am reading it wrong.

I don't know that Brown was up on the statistical differences, but you have a point that he probably realized he would not be in for fair treatment, and that would affect his behavior.

 

[Stoked]

You're both right, IMO. Al and Rev have both highlighted deep-seated, and important race-relations issues in their lifetimes.


However, they are both certainly not the most ideal spokesmen for highlighting black issues, and provoking political change in my opinion.

I honestly feel that they are no longer capable of achieving the change they may want. There are others more capable of accomplishing that task. If only from the intitial reaction their names receive.

When I heard that Sharpton was in Ferguson I groaned.

 

[Stoked]

Which is different from saying that white men are not allowed to have or voice opinions. You think your opinions are so good that they should never piss people off?

I don't know that Brown was up on the statistical differences, but you have a point that he probably realized he would not be in for fair treatment, and that would affect his behavior.

The problem was that they were talking about it at all. That the opinions were being voiced at all was the problem. Not so much what their opinions where, there is a difference. That is how I took it at least.

I agree that opinions can piss people off but that's not what I said. I said he was pissed that they had opinions at all.

Again this is my take on it. I've been wrong before. No I do not trust your judgement on if I was or not. I'd listen to Baby Peterzz though as it was said by him and he could tell me if I judged his intention correctly or not.

 

[Stoked]

Last thought on it.

I feel for the Brown family. That was their son. Horrible tragedy.

I hope that the facts come out and that any charges and court proceedings reflect those facts. I also hope that the violence stops and that the police/national guard back off a little.

Sad all the way around. Hopefully it actually leads to some real change but it won't. None of the other dead inspired change.

 

[One Brow]

The NY Times had articles up before the looting.

Contrast that with Dillon Taylor, a white kid shot in Utah in similar circumstances. There have been multiple protests, but no national coverage. I understand the riots gave it more attention, but it clearly had national news coverage prior to looting/violence.

National outlets covering Taylor:

https://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08...ah-man-because-he-wouldnt-comply-with-orders/
https://www.inquisitr.com/1412236/dillon-taylor-police-shooting/

By contrast, the earliest story from the NYT I could find is here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/11/us/police-say-mike-brown-was-killed-after-struggle-for-gun.html

Some quotes to indicate is happened after to rioting:

At a candlelight vigil on Sunday evening, the heightened tensions between the police and the African-American community were on display. A crowd estimated in the thousands flooded the streets near the scene of the shooting, some of them chanting “No justice, no peace.” They were met by hundreds of police officers in riot gear, carrying rifles and shields, as well as K-9 units.

Witnesses described a peaceful protest that later turned volatile, and there were scattered reports of violence. Images and videos captured on cellphones and posted on social media sites appeared to show people spray-painting and looting a QuikTrip gas station and other stores. Rioters shattered the windows of the gas station and damaged several police cars, said Brian Lewis, a spokesman for the St. Louis County Police Department.

Police officials, fearing civil disorder, dispatched officers with police dogs to control the crowds.

Any of that happen at the Taylor protests?

By the way, this is the first I've read of the police pulling out riot gear before the violence. It certainly puts things in a different light for me.

 

[One Brow]

Yes, I understand that. I was speaking in current terms, programs intended to help the oppressed have the opposite effect.

That's so easy to say when you are not among the oppressed. No person is forced to apply for welfare.