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Poor Jazz Roster Construction

Still with a few more tweaks to the roster and another year of maturation for Donovan, we’re not that far off. Finals may be in the future for the Jazz but it’s not gonna be this year.


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Koolaid. Give me a break.

Rudy + 4 shooter/PnR starters. On the other side, a top 5 defense.

There’s no cult koolaid for that. That **** will get you there by itself faster than Montego Bay because it is NBA Finals-incarnate in the current competitive parity.

Keep quibbling about bouncy 4s, tho.
 
SuperHooper said:
So I’m hardly the first non-homer to point out these weaknesses. The post was supposed to be a critique of the Jazz’s championship prospects. Instead of building in flexibility, we’ve now kinda locked ourselves into this 15-man roster (that’s very light in bench production and defensive forwards to guard Kawhi/Lebron/AD and pretty inflexible at the 5).

And it’s not that I’d want someone INSTEAD of Jeff Green - he’s a good get at the min. As an OPTION at the 4/5 he might be good for some minutes, but I don’t want to have to rely on him to win shart - he’s made a career out of disappointing teams... thus why he’s a Jazzman on a min 1-yr.

As I said if they couldn’t find a defensive, bouncy 4 at the min available anywhere, then instead of wasting the roster spot on a total no-name like William Howard, I would have rather just left it open for a buyout (as most contending teams do). Good luck playing 6’6” Royce as a small ball 5 - he’s good but he’s pretty much at his peak at 26 y/o, and he’s not THAT big, nor THAT athletic.

I’ll be yelling my lungs out every game cheering them, and I hope I’m wrong, but in a 7-game series l just don’t see this particular Jazz squad beating the best of the west.

PS: I’m glad we didn’t pay Favors $18m to play backup center minutes. Nor Mirotic + some wing shooter for the same price. That would have been worse.


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Click to expand...

Am I wrong? William Howard's contract is mostly non-guaranteed. He still has to earn his roster spot or we could cut him.
 
So a lot of complaining, SuperHooper.
Put your money where your mouth is. You're Lindzanik. Tell us, specifically, what you would have done differently. No generalities, such as someone more athletic, give us specifics. Who was available? Who would you have offered and at how much?

Here, I'll give you an "out", but this is hindsight:
1. What would have closed the deal for Conley at the deadline? Rumor was Dante. So Dante, Derrick and a 1st? Not sure Rubio would have been wanted by Grizzlies if they were to get Dante in the deal. But perhaps it's a 50/50 trade. Lindsey insists on Rubio being included if he's also giving up Exum.
1a. With Conley in place, Jazz could keep Derrick - and Jae - had they wanted. No Bogdanovic, though, if they do that.

But let's not go back. This off-season:
1. Do you make the Conley trade the way it went down? Or do you keep Crowder, your athletic 4 who is also streaky AF as a shooter. and get a different PG? Or do you keep Rubio?

2. To get Bogs or any other significant FA, Jazz had to clear cap. I think the only "questionable" move is keeping Dante, which then waterfalls into other roster moves. I happen to agree with it - for one more year. But take that $10M, add in Davis and Green. Was there another player available at ~$17M that would have come to Utah?

3. BTW, neither Howard nor Kidd are fully guaranteed. Jazz could still leave a spot open, or sign someone to a vet-minimum deal who gets waived.

Awfully tough to get under the cap and then fill all your roster holes in the same season, except if you're playing a video game and can just choose whoever you want, assuming you're choice #1 for every FA. Ideally Utah WOULD have a better starting 4. But Jazz will have their full MLE next year. Hopefully they can add one more very good player, or even a couple more ring chasers.
 
Jack Strop said:
So a lot of complaining, SuperHooper.
Put your money where your mouth is. You're Lindzanik. Tell us, specifically, what you would have done differently. No generalities, such as someone more athletic, give us specifics. Who was available? Who would you have offered and at how much?

Here, I'll give you an "out", but this is hindsight:
1. What would have closed the deal for Conley at the deadline? Rumor was Dante. So Dante, Derrick and a 1st? Not sure Rubio would have been wanted by Grizzlies if they were to get Dante in the deal. But perhaps it's a 50/50 trade. Lindsey insists on Rubio being included if he's also giving up Exum.
1a. With Conley in place, Jazz could keep Derrick - and Jae - had they wanted. No Bogdanovic, though, if they do that.

But let's not go back. This off-season:
1. Do you make the Conley trade the way it went down? Or do you keep Crowder, your athletic 4 who is also streaky AF as a shooter. and get a different PG? Or do you keep Rubio?

2. To get Bogs or any other significant FA, Jazz had to clear cap. I think the only "questionable" move is keeping Dante, which then waterfalls into other roster moves. I happen to agree with it - for one more year. But take that $10M, add in Davis and Green. Was there another player available at ~$17M that would have come to Utah?

3. BTW, neither Howard nor Kidd are fully guaranteed. Jazz could still leave a spot open, or sign someone to a vet-minimum deal who gets waived.

Awfully tough to get under the cap and then fill all your roster holes in the same season, except if you're playing a video game and can just choose whoever you want, assuming you're choice #1 for every FA. Ideally Utah WOULD have a better starting 4. But Jazz will have their full MLE next year. Hopefully they can add one more very good player, or even a couple more ring chasers.
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I appreciate your taking me down point by point, as opposed to the first ad hominem attack. Obviously specifics aren’t my strength - I’m not an amateur GM, just another NBA fan who listens to a fair number of podcasts, and reads some articles. I’m just pointing out what I think is a glaring weakness that homers clearly refuse to acknowledge - we’re undersized at the 4 and inflexible/unidimensional at the 5, giving us poor smallball options.

However the TYPES of guys I would be thinking of (if Favors were unwilling to take $8-10m) would have been Jerami Grant (stolen by Denver @ $9m w/ single 1st round pick), Jonathan Isaac, Jordan Bell, Al-Farouq Aminu...

1. 100% - if offered I would have traded Rubio + Exum + spare parts for Conley at the trade deadline last year. I don’t know if Favors would have been required or not - Exum + Rubio + Favors would have been much more difficult for me to swallow, given the massive hole left for playoffs.

1a. Why would Bogdonovich have been impossible to get in July if we got rid of Rubio + Exum + spare parts at trade deadline, and then renounced, traded (or restructured) Favors’ contract?

This offseason:
1. The Conley trade was fine as it went down. I couldn’t stand Crowder’s throwing up brick after brick, and lack of any other offensive skills. He also was not that athletic, and had tiny hands, making him a very poor finisher at the rim and a poor rebounder. And if we’re getting Conley, obviously screw Rubio and his $16m.

2. Again I’m not sure why Bogey would have been ungettable if we had dropped Exum, Rubio, Crowder, Korver (and probably Favors). Not sure how keeping Exum at $10m is anything BUT questionable after 5 years/200 games at 5.9 pts/2.3 ast/1.3 tov/1.8 reb/.468 efg%... he can’t stay on the floor for more than 40 games a year and isn’t worth even half his contract despite his defensive acumen. Which is why he’s worth so little as a trade chip, yet kills us as far as the team’s cap.

3. I know Howard’s not fully guaranteed, but given Lindsey’s history of filling all the roster spots, I find it unlikely it won’t shortly become guaranteed.

4. THIS is my hope. Which is why I said no finals appearance this year, but reachable next year.


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Can't re-run all the numbers but landing Conley and Bojan was kinda best case scenario with a combo of trades and free agent space. I had hoped we could do the Conley deal in season last year so we could have full MLE available. Had we moved Exum, Crowder we'd have had space.

The roster construction is really good... we have holes for sure. One thing that we have done is we filled potential holes with development types - Exum - yes an eternal development, Mudiay, NWG, Oni, Bradley... that's five spots. I think Niang is a solid rotation player if needed even though he is still improving... I think he can be relied on... Exum if healthy is fine for 15-18 minutes a night... but ya know "if healthy" might be his middle name at this point.

We could add a traditionally sized rotation level 4 or a solid backup pg to fill the holes. Those are both things we can play by ear and address later if need be. If our top 8 guys, or even just the top 4-5, have relatively healthy years we are going to be awesome. One of the development guys might pop and then you have a cheap piece (outside of Exum) playing in a perfectly suitable role. I could see NWG being a solid backup guard in kind of a Tyus Jones type of way, or Oni being a functional 3 and D wing, or hell maybe Mudiay figures some things out... he has talent, physical attributes, and seems to be mature/serious about developing. The fact that he pushed his way to this situation says a lot about him imo… I will be rooting for him even though I think it maybe a basketball IQ issue.

I'd like to see Howard play well enough that he takes Tony's spot... right now we don't have a spot for him... he could be interesting.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Can't re-run all the numbers but landing Conley and Bojan was kinda best case scenario with a combo of trades and free agent space. I had hoped we could do the Conley deal in season last year so we could have full MLE available. Had we moved Exum, Crowder we'd have had space.

The roster construction is really good... we have holes for sure. One thing that we have done is we filled potential holes with development types - Exum - yes an eternal development, Mudiay, NWG, Oni, Bradley... that's five spots. I think Niang is a solid rotation player if needed even though he is still improving... I think he can be relied on... Exum if healthy is fine for 15-18 minutes a night... but ya know "if healthy" might be his middle name at this point.

We could add a traditionally sized rotation level 4 or a solid backup pg to fill the holes. Those are both things we can play by ear and address later if need be. If our top 8 guys, or even just the top 4-5, have relatively healthy years we are going to be awesome. One of the development guys might pop and then you have a cheap piece (outside of Exum) playing in a perfectly suitable role. I could see NWG being a solid backup guard in kind of a Tyus Jones type of way, or Oni being a functional 3 and D wing, or hell maybe Mudiay figures some things out... he has talent, physical attributes, and seems to be mature/serious about developing. The fact that he pushed his way to this situation says a lot about him imo… I will be rooting for him even though I think it maybe a basketball IQ issue.

I'd like to see Howard play well enough that he takes Tony's spot... right now we don't have a spot for him... he could be interesting.
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Yeah we’re “forced” to get a guy like NWG cuz the FO is still enamored by a guy who can’t shoot, can’t dribble, and can’t stay on the floor, and decided to get an undeveloped FOURTH point guard who also can’t shoot and can’t defend. We have four point guards, three of whom might not be PG’s or even solid rotation players.

Hopefully the Jazz’s holes (at PG and PF) are just less than other teams’. Or can be plugged by the deadline. My fear is that the FO won’t move on anything unless we’re in like 6th or 7th place in January


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SuperHooper said:
Yeah we’re “forced” to get a guy like NWG cuz the FO is still enamored by a guy who can’t shoot, can’t dribble, and can’t stay on the floor, and decided to get an undeveloped FOURTH point guard who also can’t shoot and can’t defend. We have four point guards, three of whom might not be PG’s or even solid rotation players.

Hopefully the Jazz’s holes (at PG and PF) are just less than other teams’. Or can be plugged by the deadline. My fear is that the FO won’t move on anything unless we’re in like 6th or 7th place in January


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Click to expand...

I think if Dante could have been included in the Conley trade it would have been ideal, but some in the FO are married to the idea of being good. I don't worry too much about the depth at pg because Ingles, Bojan, DM can all handle the ball and create and we have great wing depth... so we can duct tape a lot of stuff together if all of those guys are unplayable.

The PF position needs some time to marinate. Green could be solid and we will play Bojan and Royce there too. If it isn't working out there are guys I could see becoming available. 3 PF this summer and 1 pf/c in Taj Gibson... I can't see Morris, Randle, Portis all being happy with reduced playing time on an *** team. Thad Young signed with Chicago and they may want to clear more time for Lauri and Carter...
the issue is any of those bigger deals would require Exum... which means he'd have to be healthy and at least showing some improvement... which means DL would have one of them 3-hour Viagra boners for him and would never part with him.

I think the Green acquisition could be really underrated. As a spot up 4 who can get some transition opportunities could be really good. Hot take... he's better than Jae Crowder in that role. Much more efficient but might be a worse defender (Jae is overrated as a defender). He won't bring the intangible energy stuff, but Jeff has gotten a bad rap because everyone always wanted more from him.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Can't re-run all the numbers but landing Conley and Bojan was kinda best case scenario with a combo of trades and free agent space. I had hoped we could do the Conley deal in season last year so we could have full MLE available. Had we moved Exum, Crowder we'd have had space.

The roster construction is really good... we have holes for sure. One thing that we have done is we filled potential holes with development types - Exum - yes an eternal development, Mudiay, NWG, Oni, Bradley... that's five spots. I think Niang is a solid rotation player if needed even though he is still improving... I think he can be relied on... Exum if healthy is fine for 15-18 minutes a night... but ya know "if healthy" might be his middle name at this point.

We could add a traditionally sized rotation level 4 or a solid backup pg to fill the holes. Those are both things we can play by ear and address later if need be. If our top 8 guys, or even just the top 4-5, have relatively healthy years we are going to be awesome. One of the development guys might pop and then you have a cheap piece (outside of Exum) playing in a perfectly suitable role. I could see NWG being a solid backup guard in kind of a Tyus Jones type of way, or Oni being a functional 3 and D wing, or hell maybe Mudiay figures some things out... he has talent, physical attributes, and seems to be mature/serious about developing. The fact that he pushed his way to this situation says a lot about him imo… I will be rooting for him even though I think it maybe a basketball IQ issue.

I'd like to see Howard play well enough that he takes Tony's spot... right now we don't have a spot for him... he could be interesting.
Click to expand...
Howard got to make the team first tho
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Howard got to make the team first tho
Click to expand...

Right... was getting at it by saying he needs to play well enough (in camp and preseason) that he takes Tony’s spot. If they don’t love what Mudiay is doing I could see them waiving him... he’d likely be picked up and we’d be on the hook for none of his salary....

But yeah Howard needs to be really good for any of that to happen... otherwise he’s a Star or likely headed back to Europe.
 
If the Grizzlies would’ve taken Exum, Favors, a first, and whatever other filler to make the salary work at the deadline, that would’ve been huge. Having Caruso and JaMychal Green would’ve been sick.

Considering that that might’ve altered the outcome of this offseason in a way that might’ve been worse on the whole and that we can’t predict other aspects, I would take this offseason over door 2.
 
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