Proof of vaccination or negative COVID test required to attend games

[Deron Williams]

Got any papers that passed peer review?

I offered four sources that confirm vaccination-generated immunity is better. You offered a decades-old anti-vaccine trope and a paper that hasn't even been positively reviewed.

You're apparently too stupid to realize your papers are comparing vax + natural immunity to just natural immunity. They are NOT comparing vax vs. natural immunity. The phrasing in the CDC headline is deliberately deceiving to fool morons like you.

From the KY study:
"The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated."

 

[TheGoldStandard]

You're apparently too stupid to realize your papers are comparing vax + natural immunity to just natural immunity. They are NOT comparing vax vs. natural immunity. The phrasing in the CDC headline is deliberately deceiving to fool morons like you.

From the KY study:
"The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated."

I agree that a lot of emerging data shows (studies are conflicting) that someone that has had covid and no vaccine has better immunity generally, although the studies haven't been long enough to show how that protection lasts over time. You make a valid point.

Since all the same studies show that you get even better immunity with both (whether you get Covid before or after vaccine, coupled with the vaccine having basically zero risk of death or severe complications (other than those with vaccine related allergies, etc.), I don't really see how it is relevant unless you believe getting the virus is the best way to protect you from the virus. I also heard getting pregnant is the best way to avoid getting pregnant, at least for a while.

Even with breakthrough risk, hospitalization, severe illness, etc., all drop for vaccinated people with where getting the virus has a fairly high risk of death and/or long-term or severe illness. We are seeing very few hospitalizations of vaccinated people, and most of those were already high risk. You have to take into account that as you age, your immune response weakens, which is likely the reason a lot of younger people feel awful for a couple days after getting the vaccine, and most older people feel fine.

Also, telling someone they are "too stupid" and calling them "morons like you" will do nothing to convince them.

If you want to convince @One Brow of your argument, you should relate to him, explain where his position is accurate, while showing him data as to why he is wrong. Simply calling someone names and berating them will never convince someone of your position, you ****ing idiot.

 

[Nate505]

Since this has just devolved into another vaccination back and forth, I'm moving it.

 

[gandalfe]

Since this is just devolved into another vaccination back and forth, I'm moving it.

I was actually going to suggest that.

 

[Deron Williams]

I agree that a lot of emerging data shows (studies are conflicting) that someone that has had covid and no vaccine has better immunity generally, although the studies haven't been long enough to show how that protection lasts over time. You make a valid point.

Since all the same studies show that you get even better immunity with both (whether you get Covid before or after vaccine, coupled with the vaccine having basically zero risk of death or severe complications (other than those with vaccine related allergies, etc.), I don't really see how it is relevant unless you believe getting the virus is the best way to protect you from the virus. I also heard getting pregnant is the best way to avoid getting pregnant, at least for a while.

Even with breakthrough risk, hospitalization, severe illness, etc., all drop for vaccinated people with where getting the virus has a fairly high risk of death and/or long-term or severe illness. We are seeing very few hospitalizations of vaccinated people, and most of those were already high risk. You have to take into account that as you age, your immune response weakens, which is likely the reason a lot of younger people feel awful for a couple days after getting the vaccine, and most older people feel fine.

Also, telling someone they are "too stupid" and calling them "morons like you" will do nothing to convince them.

If you want to convince @One Brow of your argument, you should relate to him, explain where his position is accurate, while showing him data as to why he is wrong. Simply calling someone names and berating them will never convince someone of your position, you ****ing idiot.

The risk calculus changes if you're already protected via natural immunity. Given that natural immunity looks to offer robust protection from severe disease, risks from the vaccine may very well outweigh the benefits of added vax protection for certain groups. E.g., if you're already in a low risk group (young & healthy) and have natural immunity on top of that, the vax is unlikely to provide any significant benefit.

It's also relevant in that 1) if nat immunity proves to be superior to the vax, there's no logical justification for imposing mandates on ppl w/natural immunity and 2) with a limited supply of vax worldwide, the most efficient use is on high-risk groups, not those who've already beat the virus.

As to your other point, both of them are beyond convincing. They post the same nonsense in every thread--always w/smug assuredness--yet don't even understand the data behind what they're posting. Note that neither of them seemed to realize the KY study wasn't actually comparing vax vs. natural immunity. They can't be bothered to actually read. They saw a headline that aligned with their "vax = good" worldview and aren't interested in any nuance beyond that.

 

[One Brow]

You're apparently too stupid to realize your papers are comparing vax + natural immunity to just natural immunity.

Had you actually read them, you could see easily that is not true.

From the KY study:

I did not link to that study.

Are you capable of responding to what people actually post?

 

[One Brow]

As to your other point, both of them are beyond convincing.

I'm "both of them"?

They post the same nonsense in every thread--always w/smug assuredness--yet don't even understand the data behind what they're posting.

Which of us is so smug that they accuse me of referring to study that I didn't even use?

Feel free to bring actual data, from something good enough to pass peer review. Then we can see which of us can understand it.

Note that neither of them seemed to realize the KY study wasn't actually comparing vax vs. natural immunity.

Again with "them"?

They can't be bothered to actually read.

Irony upon irony.

 

[Deron Williams]

I'm "both of them"?


Which of us is so smug that they accuse me of referring to study that I didn't even use?

Feel free to bring actual data, from something good enough to pass peer review. Then we can see which of us can understand it.


Again with "them"?



Irony upon irony.

I forget if you're the hyperliberal caricature of a soyboy that posted videos last summer or the guy who stalks the IG of Donovan & his extended family. In either case, you are a clown.

First of all, the plural is referencing you and Fishon, to whom my initial response was directed.

More importantly, the Nebraska link you posted cites the "2.34x increased likelihood" which comes directly from the CDC KY paper. Your JHU link also references a 2.5x times higher chance of REINFECTION (not infection, REinfection). Again, that's coming from the same KY study.

You are stupid and were fooled by the misleading CDC headline. Once it was explained to you that the CDC study didn't actually compare natural vs. vax immunity, you were again too stupid to realize that your data was just a collection of articles referencing that same exact CDC study.

All you can do is screech about "good enough for peer review." You don't have the capacity or willingness to look at data and interpret it for yourself. You'll continue to smugly parrot whatever tripe the media throws out.

Again, you're an absolute ****ing clown. I'm not going to post anymore in this thread.

 

[Rubashov]

Who on the pro-vaccine side do you see as being hateful?

Im hateful! Frequently violent too...

 

[Rubashov]

true and most likely considerably less if it's been 6 months or more since you had your vaccination. People in the US are nuts if they're not still taking all the other precautions

Contraception? Abortion is about to be illegal in the US. Because... religion...

 

[TheGoldStandard]

First of all, the plural is referencing you and Fishon, to whom my initial response was directed.

More importantly, the Nebraska link you posted cites the "2.34x increased likelihood" which comes directly from the CDC KY paper. Your JHU link also references a 2.5x times higher chance of REINFECTION (not infection, REinfection). Again, that's coming from the same KY study.

You are stupid and were fooled by the misleading CDC headline. Once it was explained to you that the CDC study didn't actually compare natural vs. vax immunity, you were again too stupid to realize that your data was just a collection of articles referencing that same exact CDC study.

All you can do is screech about "good enough for peer review." You don't have the capacity or willingness to look at data and interpret it for yourself. You'll continue to smugly parrot whatever tripe the media throws out.

Again, you're an absolute ****ing clown. I'm not going to post anymore in this thread.

Relax Keron Williams. The pre-printed (not peer reviewed) paper from Israel among others (haven't seen any peer reviewed) state that natural immunity for those previously infected provides better protection than the vaccine alone, so there are studies that support your claim. There are a number of papers that say the opposite as well. However, that same Israel study cautioned that it shouldn't matter, because you shouldn't risk infection to get immunity when there is a better option. Other studies are also showing that infection after vaccine is less likely to cause death OR co-morbidities that are common with Covid.

We know that the vaccine provides even better protection for those that were previously infected, and we don't know how long natural immunity will last as these studies are fairly short, so a vaccine makes a lot of sense.

The other thing that "healthy" people don't realize, is that all of the media focused statistics touch on death rates, and most deaths include people with other health issues (other health issues could be anything, slightly overweight, high blood pressure, cholesterol, etc., doesn't mean you were not fairly healthy btw) but does not discuss morbidity. If you had first hand knowledge of the number of "healthy" people that are fairly young that have major side effects from Covid, you might change your tune. My wife has treated a number of very healthy patients, that have had strokes, been on ventilators, or simply dealing with long-Covid. One is aphasic from a stroke, and another Covid related stroke patient cannot walk (no idea how they have progressed after getting discharged).

While HIPAA prevents her from telling me a lot of details, and as I have stated in other threads, she has had two patients in the 30s, that were otherwise healthy, have strokes that were Covid related. A simple search for Covid and stroke risk will give you a lot of information due to Covid's clotting factors, which those types of risks are not stressed by the media, simply deaths. She also has a male patient, early 40s, otherwise completely healthy prior to Covid, that has been on a ventilator for over 40 days. For those that don't know, when you go on a ventilator, odds are, you aren't getting off of it. It would be a horrible, suffering death. Even if he lives, the devastation for being on a ventilator will require a long-term, miserable recovery.

TLDR:
1. Deron is being a Keron
2. It doesn't matter if natural immunity is better, as the vaccine provides more protection for someone that hasn't had Covid, and it provides more protection if you have had Covid. Honestly, what is the argument?
3. Don't just focus on death rates, look at the morbidity.

 

[Rubashov]

Since this has just devolved into another vaccination back and forth, I'm moving it.

I think two of these keyboard gladiators should actually fight it out in a ring. Armed with hammers, the winner gets to have the covid

 

[Rubashov]

Relax Keron Williams. The pre-printed (not peer reviewed) paper from Israel among others (haven't seen any peer reviewed) state that natural immunity for those previously infected provides better protection than the vaccine alone, so there are studies that support your claim. There are a number of papers that say the opposite as well. However, that same Israel study cautioned that it shouldn't matter, because you shouldn't risk infection to get immunity when there is a better option. Other studies are also showing that infection after vaccine is less likely to cause death OR co-morbidities that are common with Covid.

We know that the vaccine provides even better protection for those that were previously infected, and we don't know how long natural immunity will last as these studies are fairly short, so a vaccine makes a lot of sense.

The other thing that "healthy" people don't realize, is that all of the media focused statistics touch on death rates, and most deaths include people with other health issues (other health issues could be anything, slightly overweight, high blood pressure, cholesterol, etc., doesn't mean you were not fairly healthy btw) but does not discuss morbidity. If you had first hand knowledge of the number of "healthy" people that are fairly young that have major side effects from Covid, you might change your tune. My wife has treated a number of very healthy patients, that have had strokes, been on ventilators, or simply dealing with long-Covid. One is aphasic from a stroke, and another Covid related stroke patient cannot walk (no idea how they have progressed after getting discharged).

While HIPAA prevents her from telling me a lot of details, and as I have stated in other threads, she has had two patients in the 30s, that were otherwise healthy, have strokes that were Covid related. A simple search for Covid and stroke risk will give you a lot of information due to Covid's clotting factors, which those types of risks are not stressed by the media, simply deaths. She also has a male patient, early 40s, otherwise completely healthy prior to Covid, that has been on a ventilator for over 40 days. For those that don't know, when you go on a ventilator, odds are, you aren't getting off of it. It would be a horrible, suffering death. Even if he lives, the devastation for being on a ventilator will require a long-term, miserable recovery.

TLDR:
1. Deron is being a Keron
2. It doesn't matter if natural immunity is better, as the vaccine provides more protection for someone that hasn't had Covid, and it provides more protection if you have had Covid. Honestly, what is the argument?
3. Don't just focus on death rates, look at the morbidity.

Bunch of the nurses i work with have had long covid. Young, fit, healthy still took em months to get over it. As you said time spent on ventilators can lead to other issues. For instance if I spent 2 or 3 weeks on a ventilator I could lose comfortably 10 to 15kg of muscle. Im 39yo I can probably put that back on my frame if I was in my late 40s or 50s its highly unlikely.

Ive spent most of the last two months working with seriously ill covid patients, many of them younger than myself on ventilators. Last year in our first and second waves hundreds of the staff at work got sick. This year with vaccination its dozens, many of them unvaccinated.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

Bunch of the nurses i work with have had long covid. Young, fit, healthy still took em months to get over it. As you said time spent on ventilators can lead to other issues. For instance if I spent 2 or 3 weeks on a ventilator I could lose comfortably 10 to 15kg of muscle. Im 39yo I can probably put that back on my frame if I was in my late 40s or 50s its highly unlikely.

Ive spent most of the last two months working with seriously ill covid patients, many of them younger than myself on ventilators. Last year in our first and second waves hundreds of the staff at work got sick. This year with vaccination its dozens, many of them unvaccinated.

It is unfortunate so many take such odd positions on the vaccine.

One thing this pandemic has shown is the weakness of America. If China or Russia ever wants to go to war with us, the safest approach to devastate us is to unleash a more deadly virus. The rest of the world will lock down and take precautions, and we'll have a bunch of people expressing their freedoms while they spread it across the nation and kill us all. 'MERICA!

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It is unfortunate so many take such odd positions on the vaccine.

One thing this pandemic has shown is the weakness of America. If China or Russia ever wants to go to war with us, the safest approach to devastate us is to unleash a more deadly virus. The rest of the world will lock down and take precautions, and we'll have a bunch of people expressing their freedoms while they spread it across the nation and kill us all. 'MERICA!

I do think it is part of just the general division we have here. I wish Covid wasn't a political issue. My wife won't get the vaccine and part of the problem is the covid actions/protections are often inconsistent and irrational. Like "hey you need to wear a mask when you come in the door but when you sit down you can take it off". Even the original messaging on masks was incorrect and not something that should have been botched. Some are too dug in to now comply with things that make sense. Its a strange country right now and makes me wonder how much longer before this thing falls apart. People care less about facts and reason and more about what consonant a leader puts by their name.

As it relates to the Jazz... I actually have some friends that are season ticket holders... they aren't covid deniers but hadn't gotten the vaccine for a variety of reasons... they grumbled a bit but said they would get the vaccine... so stuff like this will improve vaccination rates and this is a smart thing to do. I have really like Ryan as an owner. I'm somewhat skeptical of some of his wokeness just because my faith in people is at an all-time low but this isn't an easy call in a state that will not be overwhelmingly welcome of something like this.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

I do think it is part of just the general division we have here. I wish Covid wasn't a political issue. My wife won't get the vaccine and part of the problem is the covid actions/protections are often inconsistent and irrational. Like "hey you need to wear a mask when you come in the door but when you sit down you can take it off". Even the original messaging on masks was incorrect and not something that should have been botched. Some are too dug in to now comply with things that make sense. Its a strange country right now and makes me wonder how much longer before this thing falls apart. People care less about facts and reason and more about what consonant a leader puts by their name.

As it relates to the Jazz... I actually have some friends that are season ticket holders... they aren't covid deniers but hadn't gotten the vaccine for a variety of reasons... they grumbled a bit but said they would get the vaccine... so stuff like this will improve vaccination rates and this is a smart thing to do. I have really like Ryan as an owner. I'm somewhat skeptical of some of his wokeness just because my faith in people is at an all-time low but this isn't an easy call in a state that will not be overwhelmingly welcome of something like this.

I am also a season ticket holder, and part of our group has dropped out this year. Just means I'll have to fly in for a few more games.

The original botching on masks, IMO, was the only move to make. Trump was trying to control a panic, and Americans from buying PPE that was critically needed for hospitals. Tried to shut down access from citizens from other countries, but his political opponents pushed back and called it racist (When he constantly did stupid ****, hard to blame them), but shutting down borders may have been the right move. I blame Trump for causing divisiveness, but also blame Dem leadership for cutting off their nose to spite their face.

We were ill prepared for the pandemic, as was the rest of the world. So if I was leading the country, I think I would have also said masks weren't needed, to try to get PPE in critical hands for those on the front line being exposed daily. If the message was we need to wear masks, the limited PPE hospitals had would have been worse. My wife was wearing the same mask all day for a while there (not a safe practice when treating numerous infected patients). I think we all hate it is political, but why use that as an excuse not to follow the data and protect yourself? Forget America and politics, look at Covid and what it does, and make a determination.

If I were in charge, I'd make tax credits applicable to those that get the vaccine. It keeps medical costs down, and pushing vaccines could allow the economy to open 100% faster, so it would be a great motivator. I wouldn't force it on people, a carrot is better than a stick as they say.

Political or not, it is a balancing act from protecting business/economy and health and what the government thinks people will be willing to do. You have to balance mob "panic", business interests, health, and everything else. They are tough decisions, and I wouldn't want to be the one making them.

Biden knew that reopening in Summer was not the right move, but did it to keep a "promise". That was politically stupid.

 

[One Brow]

I forget if you're the hyperliberal caricature of a soyboy that posted videos last summer or the guy who stalks the IG of Donovan & his extended family.

I would be neither of those. The only videos I have posted that I can remember are occasional pieces of music, and the only social media I use is here and MeetUp.

In either case, you are a clown.

I accept your apology (which I have no doubt will be forthcoming).

First of all, the plural is referencing you and Fishon, to whom my initial response was directed.

Neither of those descriptions sounds like @fishonjazz , either, but he certainly could have posted things I'm not aware of.

My handle is similar to @oneye , and that could the the person you mean as "the guy who stalks the IG of Donovan & his extended family".

More importantly, the Nebraska link you posted cites the "2.34x increased likelihood" which comes directly from the CDC KY paper.

Yes, and they are very clear that, when referencing that study, it is about unvaccinated-recovered vs. vaccinated-recovered. They also address the inferiority of natural immunity versus vaccinated immunity in a different section.

They also referenced the following studies about how quickly the unvaccinated-recovered can lose their immunity, or not get any in the first place. Unlike the study you link, these have passed at least the minimal threshold that is peer review.

Predictors of Nonseroconversion after SARS-CoV-2 Infection

Nonseroconversion after SARS-CoV-2 Infection

wwwnc.cdc.gov

Decline in SARS-CoV-2 Antibodies After Mild Infection Among...

This report describes a decline in antibody levels among frontline health care workers who had previously received a positive COVID-19 antibody test and were retested 60 days later.

www.cdc.gov

Your JHU link also references a 2.5x times higher chance of REINFECTION (not infection, REinfection). Again, that's coming from the same KY study.

Again, in a section that very explicitly says it's referring to unvaccinated-recovered as opposed to most people. Agsin, they address the inferiority of natural immunity versus vaccinated immunity in a different section.

You are stupid and were fooled by the misleading CDC headline.

If that's the case, why is everything you are saying about the issue based on inaccurately describing the contents of easy-to-read that is easily debunked?

Once it was explained to you that the CDC study didn't actually compare natural vs. vax immunity, you were again too stupid to realize that your data was just a collection of articles referencing that same exact CDC study.

These articles included references to that study, as well as references to other studies and other situations. I can read well enough to know the topic of one paragraph can be different from the topic of another paragraph. I have yet to see evidence that you understand this.

All you can do is screech about "good enough for peer review." You don't have the capacity or willingness to look at data and interpret it for yourself.

I know that I'm not a physician doing research; I work with quite a few of them. As for my capacity to read a scientific paper, I have yet to see evidence you are qualified to judge, based on your misinterpretation of simple news articles.

Again, you're an absolute ****ing clown. I'm not going to post anymore in this thread.

And there was much rejoicing. This will save you further embarrassment.

 

[One Brow]

I think two of these keyboard gladiators should actually fight it out in a ring. Armed with hammers, the winner gets to have the covid

I'm fully vaccinated right now, but I suppose you could try.

 

[Avery]

I read somewhere that conspiracy theorists are saying that we're just spraying crops such as corn and wheat with the COVID vaccine so people are forced to get it.

I would have loved to have had the vaccine just from eating popcorn.

 

[lauriandres]

It is unfortunate so many take such odd positions on the vaccine.

One thing this pandemic has shown is the weakness of America. If China or Russia ever wants to go to war with us, the safest approach to devastate us is to unleash a more deadly virus. The rest of the world will lock down and take precautions, and we'll have a bunch of people expressing their freedoms while they spread it across the nation and kill us all. 'MERICA!

Should China and Russia go with that route - then instead of panicking the USA should use the non-violent powers it has; for example, ban the use of internet (i.e block top level domains, IP-s etc) and block from the SWIFT system (yes, i know the SWIFT headquaters are in Belgium). Plus block VISA, Mastercard and AMEX transactions.
I guess the officials in China and Russia might be quite happy about the current situation: americans are fighting with each other instead of the enemy for some really first world reasons (for example the same case attending Jazz games), at the same time kowtowing in front of China (Daryll Morey was bashed ASAP).

IMHO it is just silly or kneejerk action if an otherwise healthy non-vaccinated season ticket holder is banned or requires a test, while somebody, who is vaccinated, but is schizophrenic and other mental issues a la similar to Andreas Lubitz, has AIDS, hepathitis and some other issues, is allowed to attend games. Am i correct that it is highly illegal that the entrance guard also asks or demands a recent document from a reputable doctor, that the ticket holder does not have any mental issues?