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Putin has pwned Obama

Stoked said:
NATO already has the forces in place to do so. There are already American warplanes in Turkey along the Syrian border.

In Syria and Iraq there are Canadians, Belgians, British, French, Americans and Turkish forces.

I say launch two massive air strikes at the same time into Syria. America and Turkey from their border and the other 4 other nations listed from the Iraqi border. Right before this happens the NATO headquarters needs to call the head of the Russian delegation there and basically tell them to pay attention and lodge a formal complaint about the violations of Turkish airspace and the probing of the Baltics and tell them a third time will not go unanswered.

Putin understands strength.
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Agreed.

I'm aware that there is Nato air presence there but Turkey just a year ago complained that it was not sufficient(they may have also said so more recently but I haven't read that). Putin knows Turkey is basically the ugly duckling. He suspects that Nato powers(especially European ones) will get nervous likely tighten up rules of engagement, reduce the number or scope of patrols, and may even recall some forces for "maintenance". The Dutch recalled mobile surface to air missile defense systems last year from Turkey when ISIS was approaching the Turkish border. Obama needs to lead on this. I think we need to do something like the Berlin Air drops. Show that we are srs and will not be bullied or deterred. Putin will back down if he sees that Nato is ready to commit real resources to defend Turkish sovereignty.
 
♪alt13 said:
Agreed.

I'm aware that there is Nato air presence there but Turkey just a year ago complained that it was not sufficient(they may have also said so more recently but I haven't read that). Putin knows Turkey is basically the ugly duckling. He suspects that Nato powers(especially European ones) will get nervous likely tighten up rules of engagement and may even recall some forces for "maintenance". The Dutch recalled mobile surface to air missile defense systems last year from Turkey when ISIS was approaching the Turkish border. Obama needs to lead on this. I think we need to do something like the Berlin Air drops. Show that we are srs and will not be bullied or deterred. Putin will back down if he sees that Nato is ready to commit real resources to defend Turkish sovereignty.
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Interesting point on Turkey being the Ugly Duckling. They certainly are the most unique and outside the mold nation in NATO. A strong show of unquestionable support for them would send a strong message that Turkey is NATO and that isn't changing.

Question is what is Turkey willing to have in it's territory? Would Turkey want say 27 (one for every foreign NATO nation) foreign warplanes from 27 countries on their territory?

War games (such as a simulated dog fight) with a plane from every NATO nation on the Turkey/Syrian border would send a strong message if it was played right in the media as a message to not interfere with NATO countries.
 
Stoked said:
Interesting point on Turkey being the Ugly Duckling. They certainly are the most unique and outside the mold nation in NATO. A strong show of unquestionable support for them would send a strong message that Turkey is NATO and that isn't changing.

Question is what is Turkey willing to have in it's territory? Would Turkey want say 27 (one for every foreign NATO nation) foreign warplanes from 27 countries on their territory?

War games (such as a simulated dog fight) with a plane from every NATO nation on the Turkey/Syrian border would send a strong message if it was played right in the media as a message to not interfere with NATO countries.
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Gotta read Turkish, Iranian, Kurdish, etc. news to know what they want. I just went to Hurriyet Daily news(Turkish paper) to search for the story I was referring to. I found an update. Apparently we just removed our patriot missiles from Turkey and so did Germany in August. Is it a coincidence that Putin is playing with Turkey's border almost immediately? I think we both would agree that it's not.

The United States announced on Aug. 16 that it had informed the Turkish government that the U.S. deployment of Patriot air and missile defense units in Turkey, which expires in October, will not be renewed. The announcement came one day after Germany also said it would pull its Patriot missile batteries from southern Turkey.
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https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-germany-to-pull-patriot-missiles-from-turkey.aspx?pageID=238&nID=87039&NewsCatID=510

Turkish officials were livid when told two weeks ago that the U.S. was withdrawing the Patriots, the daily reported, quoting American officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The Netherlands, one of the three countries that deployed Patriot missiles in southern Turkish provinces in 2013 as part of a NATO decision to boost Turkey’s air defenses against a potential Syrian missile attack, withdrew its Patriot missile batteries and the Dutch soldiers operating them in Adana province in 2014, saying it could no longer maintain them.
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https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/nato-in-consultation-no-replacement-of-german-patriots-in-turkey-yet.aspx?pageID=238&nID=87056&NewsCatID=510
 
♪alt13 said:
Gotta read Turkish, Iranian, Kurdish, etc. news to know what they want. I just went to Hurriyet Daily news(Turkish paper) to search for the story I was referring to. I found an update. Apparently we just removed our patriot missiles from Turkey and so did Germany in August. Is it a coincidence that Putin is playing with Turkey's border almost immediately? I think we both would agree that it's not.



https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-germany-to-pull-patriot-missiles-from-turkey.aspx?pageID=238&nID=87039&NewsCatID=510



https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/nato-in-consultation-no-replacement-of-german-patriots-in-turkey-yet.aspx?pageID=238&nID=87056&NewsCatID=510
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Ugh, no it is not a coincidence. Romney looks like a genius now. In regards to Russia at least.
 
Stoked said:
Ugh, no it is not a coincidence. Romney looks like a genius now. In regards to Russia at least.
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I understand why we took them out. Turkey needed to get with the program but we must renew them now. I think this situation can be salvaged and turned into a positive.

We should bolster Turkish defenses, support their proposed no fly zone in Syria, and in return get Turkey to support bolstering the Peshmerga and a path to statehood for kurds led by the KRG. Then we can let Russia deal with the quagmire that is the rest of Iraq and Syria.
 
♪alt13 said:
I understand why we took them out. Turkey needed to get with the program but we must renew them now. I think this situation can be salvaged and turned into a positive.

We should bolster Turkish defenses, support their proposed no fly zone in Syria, and in return get Turkey to support bolstering the Peshmerga and a path to statehood for kurds led by the KRG. Then we can let Russia deal with the quagmire that is the rest of Iraq and Syria.
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I am all for soring up our current allies like Turkey. Part of doing this is making these nations pay more for their own defense. Part of it is supplying some American muscle in areas these countries are weak. Such as patriot missiles and advanced communications gear.

Having Israel, Turkey and a Kurdistan with very strong US ties is a good place to start. Let Russia have Iraq and Syria.

I'd re-evaluate all other middle east "allies" such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan (most likely alliance I'd keep).

A no-fly zone gets very tricky as this is not against a tin pot regime. Russian pilots patrol those skies and that could make a no-fly zone extremely risky. If we take that stance we have to be prepared to enforce it.
 
Stoked said:
I am all for soring up our current allies like Turkey. Part of doing this is making these nations pay more for their own defense. Part of it is supplying some American muscle in areas these countries are weak. Such as patriot missiles and advanced communications gear.

Having Israel, Turkey and a Kurdistan with very strong US ties is a good place to start. Let Russia have Iraq and Syria.

I'd re-evaluate all other middle east "allies" such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan (most likely alliance I'd keep).

A no-fly zone gets very tricky as this is not against a tin pot regime. Russian pilots patrol those skies and that could make a no-fly zone extremely risky. If we take that stance we have to be prepared to enforce it.
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Turkey's proposed No fly zone would only cover the extreme north of Syria. IIRC like 10-20 miles south of Turkey's border. I think that is doable. The problem is that most people realize that Turkey really wants it to go after the YPG. I think we can convince them to allow Peshmerga to operate in northern Syria while Turkey and Nato control the sky. The YPG is in competition with the Peshmerga for the hearts of the Kurdish people. Expanded influence of the Peshmerga would definitely come at the expense of the YPG. If we did do this we would need to provide some ground troops in Kurdish Iraq. Luckily they would be welcomed there just like they were before.
 
♪alt13 said:
Turkey's proposed No fly zone would only cover the extreme north of Syria. IIRC like 10-20 miles south of Turkey's border. I think that is doable. The problem is that most people realize that Turkey really wants it to go after the YPG. I think we can convince them to allow Peshmerga to operate in northern Syria while Turkey and Nato control the sky. The YPG is in competition with the Peshmerga for the hearts of the Kurdish people. Expanded influence of the Peshmerga would definitely come at the expense of the YPG. If we did do this we would need to provide some ground troops in Kurdish Iraq. Luckily they would be welcomed there just like they were before.
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Well not violating Turkey's airspace should be easy as well and we see how well that is happening...

But I think that Turkey would go for that. Trick is getting enough NATO members to sign on to be effective. America needs to force other NATO members hands on funding. Canada can't even field a marginally effective navy. Germany needed help with aerial transportation...
 
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