Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.

[Jazz Spazz]

I think the whole grace vs works is not really what is being argued, and it is unnecessary.

We can both agree that we are saved by the Grace of God, and nothing we can do will ever save us.

The Grace of God is a free gift to every person.

As with all gifts, it must be accepted. We must accept the gift in order to "open it" or be saved.

Accepting the Grace of God requires us to "do" something. Our works are not what save us, but our works are the actions we take to accept the Grace of God.

We all know without the Grace of God, any works we do would not be enough... but together they are always enough.

The works Christ asks us to do in order to accept his Grace, or fall under his protection is to keep His commandments.


We seem to be arguing two separate points yet are saying the same thing using different language.

Imo people can fall from the Grace of God, and they do so when they fail to keep His commandments.

People can obtain His Grace late in life as they change their hearts and begin to keep His commandments.

He can judge our hearts so it's not up to me to decide that luckily.

Now can we get past this and start arguing about what keeping his commandments entails please?

 

[mellow]

Amen. Works is evidence of our faith.
But without what Jesus did we couldn't possibly work our way to worthiness.

That sounds like a quote from conference. I don't know why this topic continues to be a source of contention except that the vernacular of the Mormons is different than that of the evangelicals. That, And maybe some of the things each group thinks they know about the other.

It is really sad to me that for centuries Christianity found ways to divide and exclude rather than finding ways to unite and include. Maybe now as Christianity takes a back seat to other belief systems in the world we can finally recognize our commonalities and work together for Him.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

You're right. Buying myself an extra large needle tomorrow. Hope it's not too late.

My understanding of this is that there was a gate in Jerusalem they called "the Eye of the Needle". It was low and required all camels to be unloaded and they had to crawl through the gate to enter into Jerusalem.

The rich people can do it, but they must be "unloaded" and kneel to their maker in order to make it in. If you do not love your riches, but use them to help others and if you are humble and turn yourself to the Lord, that may be what was meant there.

Just what I've heard, don't know it 100% for a fact.

Or... you can buy a huge needle and walk in if super rich.?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm a miserable sinner, but I try to be nice.

I can't think of any reason anybody could/should have been offended by much if anything in this thread.

It's been respectable conversation, especially how strongly we feel about the topic on either side of the discussion.

I think it's been good and appreciate the approach and perspectives.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Is this about winning a debate? If so, I yield, you win.

I don't think it's about winning so much as trying to get someone to understand a point of view that seems straight forward yes appears to elude people with the other perspective. I'm sure it's felt on both sides of the discussion.

 

[b_line]

A little bit on how Mormons view the whole grace/works subject that has always worked for me:

Mormons have never thought that works alone will save them. The viewpoint can be summarized by a story commonly heard in lds teaching about a young boy saving all the money he has to buy a prized bicycle, and coming pitifully short. When the boys father sees that the boy has nowhere near the amount of money for the bicycle, despite all the effort he has made to save, there is no possible way he could have come up with the money to pay for it. So he steps in and buys the bike for the kid, similar to what the savior has done in buying our souls.

Mormons understand that there is absolutely no way that we can be saved without the grace of God. But we also belive that we must evidence our faith in Christ by our works. It seems that everyone but Bentley and hantlers understands this in this thread.

As far as the whole Mormons not being Christians thing goes, who cares? Obviously Christians think Mormons are wrong, and Mormons seem to always "know" that they have the only true church. So what's the problem anyways? Mormons don't want to be included in modern Christianity, and Christians don't seem to want Mormons.

 

[b_line]

Hantlers:

You have invited a couple people in this thread to read from the bible and pray about what they are reading regarding the faith/works debate. That's great. But I have a challenge for you. It seems like you know a fair amount of obscure mormon history, but have you, in good faith and with a mind clear of prejudices, ever read the Book of Mormon and asked yourself and God if it is true? I am not talking about asking your preacher brother in law to reference obscure prophecies from Joseph smith that were never accepted as actual prophecies, but read for yourself the Book of Mormon and see what you actually think about it.

If you are willing to do that in good faith, your invitations to read and pray about the passages you mention will have much more weight. In your own words, it can't hurt, right?

 

[BENTLEY]

There is also evidence and testimony to support the that the Smiths were honest, hardworking, christians. It's worth looking into don't you think?

I do! I totally agree! I've studied plenty of pro-mormon stuff written by mormon general authorities and apologists. It would be wrong-headed to only read one side. I think we agree on that. But the funny thing is, when people start to investigate the less pleasant bits of mormon history (polygamy AND polyandry, blood atonement and Brigham's Danites gang, William Law's Nauvoo Expositor, to name but a few) then they learn that the mormon apologists admit to many of the unpleasant things, though they put the best spin on it they can. Joseph Smith really did marry other men's wives. They didn't need a husband - they had one - and Joseph wasn't taking them in or anything - he was a "spiritual" husband. She could keep living with her temporal husband. I'm sorry this is not pleasant, but as a brother in Christ I think it's important. So did William Law. And Joseph reacted by destroying the printing press that was exposing his polygamy (which he said we wasn't practicing at the time, although he was). Look it up.

And I would say there are many things that the Book of Mormon teaches about Christ, just read the book. It covers a lot.

Oh I know - the BofM is actually very Christian in its theology. There's, doctrinally, very little a Biblical Christian would find offensive in it (other than it being a product of the 18th century rather than an ancient document). I've read the BofM. I grew up mormon. I took classes on it at BYU. I even have a copy of the original Book of Mormon - the one where it's in the format of a typical novel with paragraphs (NOT in verses like the Bible - that came later, and why change it into Bible-like format anyway?). As a mormon there was so much I didn't really know (even with all the classes), and the LDS church publishes a mountain of literature that no one could read it all. I believe the effect is to overwhelm us with so much literature, not to mention all the church callings and home teaching, and mormons are so busy - mostly on Sundays so my home teacher said "I can't research all that - I'll just follow my leaders." ...the New Testament tells me not to put my trust in men, but in God. I think it's good to push that mountain of literature aside - which I testify is propaganda - and read what God had to say to us in His Word. It was really important to me to find out what I could trust, where is truth. Study of the Bible - and its history - convinced me that it was the thing I could trust. I prayed for a testimony of the LDS church - whether is was true or it wasn't - I just wanted to know. And the Lord flooded me with information. It's important to really study the New Testament, so if researching this stuff is at all traumatic (which is the case for lots of mormons in a faith crisis) then you have Jesus' words to be a sorta life preserve, as it were.

Regarding archeology you should research Thomas Stuart Ferguson. He gave his life to finding evidence of the Book of Mormon (I think he started the archeology dept at BYU) but he never found any. Google it.

I'm sorry we aren't able to come to a common place where we can validate each other. But you guys get that in testimony meetings where everyone validates each other saying "we chose the right church" over and over again. I know Mormonism. That's why I'm talking to you guys. Man, it's amazing - Biblical Christians are super enthusiastic - but that enthusiasm is supported by an amazing degree of knowledge of the Word, of Its history. I don't know nearly as much as they do - Biblically, but I know a little. I know a little more about us mormons though. So I'm kinda busting. As I'm sure everyone's aware.

Your testimony rests on your faith that mormonism is what it purports itself to be. Many Muslims faith rests on what Islam purports itself to be. You can both be wrong, but you can't both be right.

I apologize if I come across as disrespectful or anything. In the MTC they taught us to be BOLD!!, right?

 

[♪alt13]

Hantlers:

You have invited a couple people in this thread to read from the bible and pray about what they are reading regarding the faith/works debate. That's great. But I have a challenge for you. It seems like you know a fair amount of obscure mormon history, but have you, in good faith and with a mind clear of prejudices, ever read the Book of Mormon and asked yourself and God if it is true? I am not talking about asking your preacher brother in law to reference obscure prophecies from Joseph smith that were never accepted as actual prophecies, but read for yourself the Book of Mormon and see what you actually think about it.

If you are willing to do that in good faith, your invitations to read and pray about the passages you mention will have much more weight. In your own words, it can't hurt, right?

I've heard Mormons repeat this ad nauseum. It is one of the reasons people think Mormons are cultish. If you don't feel the presence of the holy ghost when reading the BoM then there is something defective about you. You were doing it wrong and have prejudices you just can't get over. Try not loading your challenge with condescending qualifiers, eh.

 

[BENTLEY]

I deleted this post.
Reason? Law of diminishing returns.

Less is more and I've already said plenty.

 

[bigb]

I'm going to try to summarize my view of "grace vs. works" as an active, card carrying Mormon.
It's like having a job. The end goal is to get a pay check. View this as "salvation". I have a license stating I'm a qualified electrician. View this as "accepting Christ". According to to grace, that should be all I need to get my pay check. But yet if don't actually get my fat butt out of bed and actually do some work, there is no pay check.
Having a license is only part of the requirements to get a pay check. My working alone just doesn't quite cut it. BOTH ARE NECESSARY. ONE ALONE DOESN'T BRING ME THE PAY CHECK.

 

[Dr. Jones]

That sounds like a quote from conference. I don't know why this topic continues to be a source of contention except that the vernacular of the Mormons is different than that of the evangelicals. That, And maybe some of the things each group thinks they know about the other.

It is really sad to me that for centuries Christianity found ways to divide and exclude rather than finding ways to unite and include. Maybe now as Christianity takes a back seat to other belief systems in the world we can finally recognize our commonalities and work together for Him.

I completely agree.

The main reason non-Mormons get an especially bad rap is the "One True Church" thing that so many other religions and denominations claim.
Same goes for mainstream Christians. People hate to be told there's one way. They want a broad gate. They view it bad enough that we say it's Jesus and no other way and it gets magnified by the "One True Church" angle.
And in Utah even more so, because it's simply referred to as "the church."

I get it, there's NO reason to defend any of this, I'm just stating how most non-mos view the whole thing.