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Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.

Basically it has been translated over and over and over and over....and as a result man has made mistakes and small changes add on small changes...

You get the general idea. But Mormons believe in the bible and use it constantly in their teachings.


This is the telephone game theory. As a mormon I was told this many times. Still perpetuated today (as well as the myths about the Council of Nicea - sigh). The telephone game theory makes sense because we've all played the telephone game where one whispers in someone's ear "Rubby baby buggie bumpers" and 5 persons later it comes out "Do you have any grey poupon." But that's not how it was translated. This is a vague theory though used by J.Smith as well as non-mormons, ex: Blavatsky and her new age minions (Did Mohammad also make this claim too? I can't remember). In the video I posted (13 min. so I'm not surprised you didn't watch it) it addresses this very theory - New Testament was translated from Greek to English, or Greek to Spanish, or Greek to German, etc. So that's only 1 direct step in the telephone game. If it had been translated from Greek to German to Spanish to English, then we would expect to see many translation errors but that, as I say, is not the case. There are more copies of the Bible than any other book in history. These copies agree with each other an astonishing amount - like 95%? or is it 99%? Regardless, it's impressive and validates Jesus Christ's words in Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

Oh, and then regarding the Old Testament there's the Dead Sea Scrolls which show what we have today is what they had back then. Wow.

If one makes the claim that the Bible is corrupted I would appreciate specifics on the subject (what parts are corrupted) rather than this vague and incorrect myth. I don't blame you for repeating it - I didn't have any reason to disbelieve it when it was told to me. But I'm glad I researched it for myself.
 
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a generality laced with what I consider to be a bit of humor will not read like a law of physics that has no exceptions, and there may be some more "politically correct" ways to phrase it, for sure. But you'd be disingenuous to deny that Mormons often resort to the pearls/swine notion and decide to just leave some bone of contention in the mud.

First of all, your original statement was worded to give the impression that all cases of a discussion with a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that ends in silence is because the other person/people in the conversation are now viewed as swine they refuse to cast their pearls before.

Secondly, I won't attempt to speak for all members of my Faith, if some people do that I am not aware of it.

Thirdly, my view of the pearls before swine idea is different than the way you seem to be portraying it. My understanding of that scripture is the idea of having certain beliefs and experiences that are sacred so I don't go around telling people about them. "Pearls" in my opinion are not points of doctrine like my understanding of the apostasy.

Fourthly there are plenty of times I just get busy with life and don't respond to stuff. That's how it goes. Also refer to Bronco70's post, there are plenty of times I am 99% sure my efforts will be wasted so I don't bother. I almost didn't respond to you because you are so over the top you appear to be trolling. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because of your history here but know you aren't above a troll or 50.
 
Many opponents of the Bible would love to change the Bible but if they tried to do that we'd just compare their version with all the other versions and then we could see theirs isn't like the rest. Then we find out what was their earliest source - did they even have one or did they just themselves revise what we already have? Jehovah's Witnesses made the claim the Bible was corrupted and then had an unnamed committee come up with their own version "New World Translation" - Their source? I don't know that they had one. It was a committee so maybe they just asked each other?)

Anyway, any attempt to change the Bible would break down and not gain any traction.
 
This is the telephone game theory. As a mormon I was told this many times. Still perpetuated today (as well as the myths about the Council of Nicea - sigh). The telephone game theory makes sense because we've all played the telephone game where one whispers in someone's ear "Rubby baby buggie bumpers" and 5 persons later it comes out "Do you have any grey poupon." But that's not how it was translated. This is a vague theory though used by J.Smith as well as non-mormons, ex: Blavatsky and her new age minions (Did Mohammad also make this claim too? I can't remember). In the video I posted (13 min. so I'm not surprised you didn't watch it) it addresses this very theory - New Testament was translated from Greek to English, or Greek to Spanish, or Greek to German, etc. So that's only 1 direct step in the telephone game. If it had been translated from Greek to German to Spanish to English, then we would expect to see many translation errors but that, as I say, is not the case. There are more copies of the Bible than any other book in history. These copies agree with each other an astonishing amount - like 95%? or is it 99%? Regardless, it's impressive and validates Jesus Christ's words in Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

Oh, and then regarding the Old Testament there's the Dead Sea Scrolls which show what we have today is what they had back then. Wow.

If one makes the claim that the Bible is corrupted I would appreciate specifics on the subject (what parts are corrupted) rather than this vague and incorrect myth. I don't blame you for repeating it - I didn't have any reason to disbelieve it when it was told to me. But I'm glad I researched it for myself.

You make it sound like the original writings were taken from Greek and then translated into English. Voila, the New Testament.

It's more like there are original writings that someone copies, and someone else copies that one, which probably happened multiple times... all in Greek.
There are other people out there trying to get rid of the writings and the copies, so they are hunted down.
A few of the copies of copies of copies of copies make it through to our day, the oldest copy of one of the books (partial) is estimated to have been written around 150 AD approx and the newest around 350 AD. Then at some point the translation from Greek to English was made.

While the "telephone game" is not a perfect example of things, it's closer than many other ways of describing it.

The telephone game does not allow for the ability to copy things word for word, but it does illustrate how even short sentences meanings can change even if a word or two is changed from the beginning to the end of the "game".

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Basically (my opinion), we believe the Bible to be the word of God, but understand there may be some mostly minor issues (1-5%) in it due to it's "translation"... whereas translation is a combination of the actual translation as well as the copying down of the ideas from the originals to copies to what we have today.
 
I consider your "conspiracy theory" comment an unfounded slur that totally discredits the rest of what you might have to say. My comment describes modern organizational practices that are commonly employed where- and when-ever there is good leadership trying to improve organizational policy.

Wirthlin would never be one to go out of the commonly understood path, and I can easily see him being allowed to speak about as freely as anyone, but make no mistake about it, the leaders are agreed on the plan to winnow out the loose cannons.

I find your "unfounded slur" comment to be an unfounded slur that totally discredits your conspiracy theory.

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This is the telephone game theory. As a mormon I was told this many times. Still perpetuated today (as well as the myths about the Council of Nicea - sigh). The telephone game theory makes sense because we've all played the telephone game where one whispers in someone's ear "Rubby baby buggie bumpers" and 5 persons later it comes out "Do you have any grey poupon." But that's not how it was translated. This is a vague theory though used by J.Smith as well as non-mormons, ex: Blavatsky and her new age minions (Did Mohammad also make this claim too? I can't remember). In the video I posted (13 min. so I'm not surprised you didn't watch it) it addresses this very theory - New Testament was translated from Greek to English, or Greek to Spanish, or Greek to German, etc. So that's only 1 direct step in the telephone game. If it had been translated from Greek to German to Spanish to English, then we would expect to see many translation errors but that, as I say, is not the case. There are more copies of the Bible than any other book in history. These copies agree with each other an astonishing amount - like 95%? or is it 99%? Regardless, it's impressive and validates Jesus Christ's words in Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

Oh, and then regarding the Old Testament there's the Dead Sea Scrolls which show what we have today is what they had back then. Wow.

If one makes the claim that the Bible is corrupted I would appreciate specifics on the subject (what parts are corrupted) rather than this vague and incorrect myth. I don't blame you for repeating it - I didn't have any reason to disbelieve it when it was told to me. But I'm glad I researched it for myself.

Then it would be what Mormons believe correct? Generally speaking of course.
 
So if Mormons believe parts of the Bible to be inaccurate, then why is it still considered a holy book? Also, how do you know which part is accurate and which isn't? Saying one part is inaccurate discredits the entire thing, IMO.
 
So if Mormons believe parts of the Bible to be inaccurate, then why is it still considered a holy book? Also, how do you know which part is accurate and which isn't? Saying one part is inaccurate discredits the entire thing, IMO.

We also believe in revelation and that as you read scripture you can gain a witness from the Holy Spirit as to what is true and gain an understanding of things.
The bottom line is, even with scripture that has been translated 100% correct, you still need the Holy Spirit to understand things correctly and fully.

Also, the interesting thing about scripture, and I'm thinking of the Lords parables more than others... can mean more than one thing.
It can be understood in different ways and all ways can be right.

Even with possible translation issues, the Bible is the word of God. Yet, we still need the Holy Spirit as that is what actually does the teaching.
 
You make it sound like the original writings were taken from Greek and then translated into English. Voila, the New Testament.

It's more like there are original writings that someone copies, and someone else copies that one, which probably happened multiple times... all in Greek.
There are other people out there trying to get rid of the writings and the copies, so they are hunted down.
A few of the copies of copies of copies of copies make it through to our day, the oldest copy of one of the books (partial) is estimated to have been written around 150 AD approx and the newest around 350 AD. Then at some point the translation from Greek to English was made.

While the "telephone game" is not a perfect example of things, it's closer than many other ways of describing it.

The telephone game does not allow for the ability to copy things word for word, but it does illustrate how even short sentences meanings can change even if a word or two is changed from the beginning to the end of the "game".



Basically (my opinion), we believe the Bible to be the word of God, but understand there may be some mostly minor issues (1-5%) in it due to it's "translation"... whereas translation is a combination of the actual translation as well as the copying down of the ideas from the originals to copies to what we have today.

You're right - copies were all made by hand (the printing press was yet to be invented). But these guys took their job incredibly seriously. If mistakes were made they threw the whole attempted copy out. Comparisons of the Massoretic text with earlier Latin and Greek versions reveal careful copying and little deviation during the thousand years from 100 B.C. to 900 A.D. We have an incredible amount of copies still today that agree with each other 99%.

Belief in the Bible requires less faith than many believe. We don't have any originals but we have so many copies that agree with each other. And this was the smallest of religions - a mustard seed, as it were. Deviated from Judaism with 1 - Jesus Christ, then 12 apostles, then missionary work eventually caused such major issues for Rome that they had to adapt to it and become "Holy Roman" in order to hold onto power. In spite of Nero feeding Christians to the lions, Christians would not recant their devotion to Jesus Christ, and this mustard seed continued to grow until Constantine stopped Christian persecution and decided he would embrace the Christians. I believe Constantine was merely being a politician and only embraced Christianity as far as it was politically beneficial to him. But I can imagine after a couple hundred years of abuse the Christians were probably fine (to some degree) with Constantine's membership. In spite of Rome's corrupting of Christianity (indulgences, the pope's ultimate power in spiritual as well as temporal matters), true Christianity remained unblemished as evidenced by Martin Luther's attempt to go back to it. In spite of Catholic corruption of the religion, true Christianity was preserved in the Bible. This movement has grown and grown and grown. And the evidence for it, other than improbable history, is the Bible. What the Bible said conflicted with what the Roman Catholic church was teaching (thank you Martin Luther). I have indescribable respect for the Bible's preservation that yes, my faith is strengthened, but it's not a blind leap of faith. It is supported by incredible evidence.

The "as far as it is translated correctly" line in the articles of faith is not specific to any translation errors, but is rather a subtle (though still vague) way to disregard the parts of the Bible that conflict with LDS teachings. I've quoted Paul to various Mormons and I consistently get an eyeroll "Oh, Paul said lots of crazy things." Well, Paul makes up the majority of the New Testament. Do they want to disregard the majority of the New Testament as translation errors? Some things Paul says conflict with mormon teachings (saved by grace alone and NOT after all we can do (NOT of works) lest any man should boast). Shrug. Any serious study of the Bible a mormon will come up against stuff that doesn't sit well with mormonism. So many just put it on the shelf and figure they'll understand the truth of it someday. But the Bible's accurate. And, if the mormon believes Jesus Christ is who He says He is, they might want to take these issues back off the shelf and find out what is true and what is not. If you only want to use LDS sources (instead of objective sources) - per LDS instruction - then just use those. When mormon apologists attempt to address controversial issues (Adam-God, people on the moon, Kinderhook plates, David Whitmer outing Joseph Smith's false prophesy about their selling the BoM rights in Canada, Book of Abraham papyri, differing versions of the first vision, B.K. Roberts' Studies of the Book of Mormon, Polyandry and polygamy, William Law's Nauvoo Expositor destroyed by J. Smith because he was blowing the whistle on Smith's polygamy) then these apologists will sometimes admit to some of the less than pleasant facts about mormon history. I love mormon history, but luckily I didn't throw out the baby Jesus with the bath water. I love Christian history too. My study of mormon history discredited mormonism, whereas my study of Christianity surprisingly strengthened my testimony of it.

You may not have researched this stuff (when can one find the time between church callings throughout the week and of course the necessary hours on Jazzfanz), but I think we can at least agree on one thing: Jesus is a stud.
 
How can we know what is the Holy spirit and what isn't. When Joseph Smith revealed the the Lord wanted David Whitmer and co. to go to Canada to sell the rights to the BofM - something that no one would purchase so that Whitmer came back to Smith and asked what was up? Joseph Smith replied "Some revelations are from God, some from devils, and some from men." So even Smith didn't know what was the Holy Spirit and what wasn't.

But mormons generally agree that the Holy Spirit is something you feel. But the Bible says "the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). Our ultimate source of truth cannot just be what we feel. Paul H. Dunn gave great talks that felt true - but they were fabrications. There is an ultimate source of truth given to us. It is the Bible. I'm not against good feelings/spiritual feelings but we must be wise about these things. Jesus said many would come in His name - be not deceived. Anyway, carry on - I gotta go.
 
We also believe in revelation and that as you read scripture you can gain a witness from the Holy Spirit as to what is true and gain an understanding of things.
The bottom line is, even with scripture that has been translated 100% correct, you still need the Holy Spirit to understand things correctly and fully.

And the Qur'an is revelation to Mohammad.
 
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