What's new

Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.

You're right - copies were all made by hand (the printing press was yet to be invented). But these guys took their job incredibly seriously. If mistakes were made they threw the whole attempted copy out. Comparisons of the Massoretic text with earlier Latin and Greek versions reveal careful copying and little deviation during the thousand years from 100 B.C. to 900 A.D. We have an incredible amount of copies still today that agree with each other 99%.

Belief in the Bible requires less faith than many believe. We don't have any originals but we have so many copies that agree with each other. And this was the smallest of religions - a mustard seed, as it were. Deviated from Judaism with 1 - Jesus Christ, then 12 apostles, then missionary work eventually caused such major issues for Rome that they had to adapt to it and become "Holy Roman" in order to hold onto power. In spite of Nero feeding Christians to the lions, Christians would not recant their devotion to Jesus Christ, and this mustard seed continued to grow until Constantine stopped Christian persecution and decided he would embrace the Christians. I believe Constantine was merely being a politician and only embraced Christianity as far as it was politically beneficial to him. But I can imagine after a couple hundred years of abuse the Christians were probably fine (to some degree) with Constantine's membership. In spite of Rome's corrupting of Christianity (indulgences, the pope's ultimate power in spiritual as well as temporal matters), true Christianity remained unblemished as evidenced by Martin Luther's attempt to go back to it. In spite of Catholic corruption of the religion, true Christianity was preserved in the Bible. This movement has grown and grown and grown. And the evidence for it, other than improbable history, is the Bible. What the Bible said conflicted with what the Roman Catholic church was teaching (thank you Martin Luther). I have indescribable respect for the Bible's preservation that yes, my faith is strengthened, but it's not a blind leap of faith. It is supported by incredible evidence.

The "as far as it is translated correctly" line in the articles of faith is not specific to any translation errors, but is rather a subtle (though still vague) way to disregard the parts of the Bible that conflict with LDS teachings. I've quoted Paul to various Mormons and I consistently get an eyeroll "Oh, Paul said lots of crazy things." Well, Paul makes up the majority of the New Testament. Do they want to disregard the majority of the New Testament as translation errors? Some things Paul says conflict with mormon teachings (saved by grace alone and NOT after all we can do (NOT of works) lest any man should boast). Shrug. Any serious study of the Bible a mormon will come up against stuff that doesn't sit well with mormonism. So many just put it on the shelf and figure they'll understand the truth of it someday. But the Bible's accurate. And, if the mormon believes Jesus Christ is who He says He is, they might want to take these issues back off the shelf and find out what is true and what is not. If you only want to use LDS sources (instead of objective sources) - per LDS instruction - then just use those. When mormon apologists attempt to address controversial issues (Adam-God, people on the moon, Kinderhook plates, David Whitmer outing Joseph Smith's false prophesy about their selling the BoM rights in Canada, Book of Abraham papyri, differing versions of the first vision, B.K. Roberts' Studies of the Book of Mormon, Polyandry and polygamy, William Law's Nauvoo Expositor destroyed by J. Smith because he was blowing the whistle on Smith's polygamy) then these apologists will sometimes admit to some of the less than pleasant facts about mormon history. I love mormon history, but luckily I didn't throw out the baby Jesus with the bath water. I love Christian history too. My study of mormon history discredited mormonism, whereas my study of Christianity surprisingly strengthened my testimony of it.

You may not have researched this stuff (when can one find the time between church callings throughout the week and of course the necessary hours on Jazzfanz), but I think we can at least agree on one thing: Jesus is a stud.

Will respond later when I get the time. You blew by a bunch of stuff in there that I want to get to, but it's interesting that we can look into many of the same things and I feel in no way that "Mormonism" is discredited, and yet my study of Christianity has strengthened my testimony of Christ as well. I also view what you call "mormonism" as Christianity.
 
Not to speak for Bentley, but I feel one of the most significant differences between Mormonism and Christianity is the doctrine of grace vs works.
 
You're right - copies were all made by hand (the printing press was yet to be invented). But these guys took their job incredibly seriously. If mistakes were made they threw the whole attempted copy out. Comparisons of the Massoretic text with earlier Latin and Greek versions reveal careful copying and little deviation during the thousand years from 100 B.C. to 900 A.D. We have an incredible amount of copies still today that agree with each other 99%.

Belief in the Bible requires less faith than many believe. We don't have any originals but we have so many copies that agree with each other. And this was the smallest of religions - a mustard seed, as it were. Deviated from Judaism with 1 - Jesus Christ, then 12 apostles, then missionary work eventually caused such major issues for Rome that they had to adapt to it and become "Holy Roman" in order to hold onto power. In spite of Nero feeding Christians to the lions, Christians would not recant their devotion to Jesus Christ, and this mustard seed continued to grow until Constantine stopped Christian persecution and decided he would embrace the Christians. I believe Constantine was merely being a politician and only embraced Christianity as far as it was politically beneficial to him. But I can imagine after a couple hundred years of abuse the Christians were probably fine (to some degree) with Constantine's membership. In spite of Rome's corrupting of Christianity (indulgences, the pope's ultimate power in spiritual as well as temporal matters), true Christianity remained unblemished as evidenced by Martin Luther's attempt to go back to it. In spite of Catholic corruption of the religion, true Christianity was preserved in the Bible. This movement has grown and grown and grown. And the evidence for it, other than improbable history, is the Bible. What the Bible said conflicted with what the Roman Catholic church was teaching (thank you Martin Luther). I have indescribable respect for the Bible's preservation that yes, my faith is strengthened, but it's not a blind leap of faith. It is supported by incredible evidence.

The "as far as it is translated correctly" line in the articles of faith is not specific to any translation errors, but is rather a subtle (though still vague) way to disregard the parts of the Bible that conflict with LDS teachings. I've quoted Paul to various Mormons and I consistently get an eyeroll "Oh, Paul said lots of crazy things." Well, Paul makes up the majority of the New Testament. Do they want to disregard the majority of the New Testament as translation errors? Some things Paul says conflict with mormon teachings (saved by grace alone and NOT after all we can do (NOT of works) lest any man should boast). Shrug. Any serious study of the Bible a mormon will come up against stuff that doesn't sit well with mormonism. So many just put it on the shelf and figure they'll understand the truth of it someday. But the Bible's accurate. And, if the mormon believes Jesus Christ is who He says He is, they might want to take these issues back off the shelf and find out what is true and what is not. If you only want to use LDS sources (instead of objective sources) - per LDS instruction - then just use those. When mormon apologists attempt to address controversial issues (Adam-God, people on the moon, Kinderhook plates, David Whitmer outing Joseph Smith's false prophesy about their selling the BoM rights in Canada, Book of Abraham papyri, differing versions of the first vision, B.K. Roberts' Studies of the Book of Mormon, Polyandry and polygamy, William Law's Nauvoo Expositor destroyed by J. Smith because he was blowing the whistle on Smith's polygamy) then these apologists will sometimes admit to some of the less than pleasant facts about mormon history. I love mormon history, but luckily I didn't throw out the baby Jesus with the bath water. I love Christian history too. My study of mormon history discredited mormonism, whereas my study of Christianity surprisingly strengthened my testimony of it.

You may not have researched this stuff (when can one find the time between church callings throughout the week and of course the necessary hours on Jazzfanz), but I think we can at least agree on one thing: Jesus is a stud.

Eyeroll- Take out your King James Bible read through it. If it is a quality version, there will be italicized words among the verses. These are places where a direct translation cannot apply and make sense, so the writers did their best to "spackle the joints" with language that would make sense to an English reader. in a few cases, not many, these can have a small effect on the outcome of the text. Certainly not to any great doctrinal length. I can't think of any large doctrinal parts of the Bible that Mormons "throw out." Additionally, there are parts of the Bible that contradict other parts of the Bible, so you can either put the blame on "translation" or that God is confused. What are you going to go with?
 
Not to speak for Bentley, but I feel one of the most significant differences between Mormonism and Christianity is the doctrine of grace vs works.

Could you Pliess outline how you see those differences roughly? I am only barely beginning to understand Grace vs works myself and don't believe many LDS members accurately understand it. I'm just curious to know how you see "Mormons" view as different from other Christians?
 
Could you Pliess outline how you see those differences roughly? I am only barely beginning to understand Grace vs works myself and don't believe many LDS members accurately understand it. I'm just curious to know how you see "Mormons" view as different from other Christians?

Not addressed to me, but I think Christians think Mormons believe "it's all about works" and Mormons think Christians believe, "it's all about us grace."

Obviously neither is true.

Works is evidence of faith. So it would stand to reason that you don't make it into the Kingdom without works.

The biggest difference between the two (in this regard) as I have observed, is Mormons apply their worthiness to works whereas Christians speak to nothing can be worthy (because we're all sinners and God's grace as the only reason we have a chance).

There's a slight difference between the two. Emphasis.

This isn't a slight (really), but I believe Christians show a more God-centric view as they are thankful for his grace and emphasize grace. Mormons have a more ego-centric view about what "I" have done.

Honestly, Christians are unfair in their portrayal of Mormon making it ALL ABOUT WORKS as if they simply discount grace.
And the exact opposite is true as far as how Mormons view Christians as LIVE HOWEVER YOU WANT BECAUSE GOD's grace is enough.

Each are equally offensive to the other.

*i do not mean to offend when I say Christian vs. Mormon. I think it's just a lazy way of communicating.
 
Could you Pliess outline how you see those differences roughly? I am only barely beginning to understand Grace vs works myself and don't believe many LDS members accurately understand it. I'm just curious to know how you see "Mormons" view as different from other Christians?

I'll do my best.

This is from religion facts, just a site with the basic outlines of all religions:
Mormons believe salvation is attained through a combination of faith in the Atonement of Christ and good works, with emphasis on the good works

That's saying that through our works, our deeds, we can earn our salvation.

Here's the 3rd Article of Faith:
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

These seem to contradict what Paul wrote when he said that we are saved by grace alone, so that no man may boast of his works. Now I'm not saying works are bad, they certainly are necessary. James says that our faith is dead if we have no works, but that does not mean that our works lead to salvation, but that grace leads to salvation which leads to works.

Now I'm reading a Mormon article from one of the leaders in 1981 on this subject, and I see more that contradicts the Bible. Apparently there is the belief that children cannot sin. This would contradict Romans 3:23, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Emphasis is mine). Our sinful, carnal nature does not allow us to earn our salvation through works, for the only way to earn it would to be perfect, and that is impossible.

Salvation is a wonderful gift that we have been given, don't folly and think that it's something you can earn. Take, accept the gift from Jesus Christ and follow his commandments, for He said, "If you love me you will obey me." (Jesus was kinda legalistic like that).
 
Another thing I don't understand...Mormon teaching says that we were spirits residing with God before time, but He sent us down so that we could progress. Now as I understand it, to be in God's presence you have to be sanctified, which is to be made holy, or perfect. God does not allow imperfection around Him. So how could we be these perfect spirits, yet need to progress? And how could we be perfect and then once in Earth become sinners?
 
Not addressed to me, but I think Christians think Mormons believe "it's all about works" and Mormons think Christians believe, "it's all about us grace."

Obviously neither is true.

Works is evidence of faith. So it would stand to reason that you don't make it into the Kingdom without works.

The biggest difference between the two (in this regard) as I have observed, is Mormons apply their worthiness to works whereas Christians speak to nothing can be worthy (because we're all sinners and God's grace as the only reason we have a chance).

There's a slight difference between the two. Emphasis.

This isn't a slight (really), but I believe Christians show a more God-centric view as they are thankful for his grace and emphasize grace. Mormons have a more ego-centric view about what "I" have done.

Honestly, Christians are unfair in their portrayal of Mormon making it ALL ABOUT WORKS as if they simply discount grace.
And the exact opposite is true as far as how Mormons view Christians as LIVE HOWEVER YOU WANT BECAUSE GOD's grace is enough.

Each are equally offensive to the other.

*i do not mean to offend when I say Christian vs. Mormon. I think it's just a lazy way of communicating.

I disagree in parts, because when it comes to salvation, it is all about grace. It says it right in the Bible. Works show that we are saved, but are not how we become saved. That is a very important distinction.
 
I disagree in parts, because when it comes to salvation, it is all about grace. It says it right in the Bible. Works show that we are saved, but are not how we become saved. That is a very important distinction.

We said nothing differently. Yes, by grace alone... but if works are the evidence of faith, then...

Pssst - it's called an olive branch.
 
I'll do my best.

This is from religion facts, just a site with the basic outlines of all religions:

That's saying that through our works, our deeds, we can earn our salvation.

Here's the 3rd Article of Faith:

These seem to contradict what Paul wrote when he said that we are saved by grace alone, so that no man may boast of his works. Now I'm not saying works are bad, they certainly are necessary. James says that our faith is dead if we have no works, but that does not mean that our works lead to salvation, but that grace leads to salvation which leads to works.

Now I'm reading a Mormon article from one of the leaders in 1981 on this subject, and I see more that contradicts the Bible. Apparently there is the belief that children cannot sin. This would contradict Romans 3:23, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Emphasis is mine). Our sinful, carnal nature does not allow us to earn our salvation through works, for the only way to earn it would to be perfect, and that is impossible.

Salvation is a wonderful gift that we have been given, don't folly and think that it's something you can earn. Take, accept the gift from Jesus Christ and follow his commandments, for He said, "If you love me you will obey me." (Jesus was kinda legalistic like that).

Here are a few article outlining some views on how the Church views Grace. Like I said I think I'm just beginning to understand it myself.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/brad-wilcox_his-grace-is-sufficient/

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng

My favorite quote from the first article.

I have born-again Christian friends who say to me, “You Mormons are trying to earn your way to heaven.”

I say, “No, we are not earning heaven. We are learning heaven. We are preparing for it (see D&C 78:7). We are practicing for it.”

Another thing I don't understand...Mormon teaching says that we were spirits residing with God before time, but He sent us down so that we could progress. Now as I understand it, to be in God's presence you have to be sanctified, which is to be made holy, or perfect. God does not allow imperfection around Him. So how could we be these perfect spirits, yet need to progress? And how could we be perfect and then once in Earth become sinners?

As far as this, I think the distinction is perfection vs cleanliness. No unclean thing can be in gods presence. I don't think that means perfection.
 
Eyeroll- Take out your King James Bible read through it. If it is a quality version, there will be italicized words among the verses. These are places where a direct translation cannot apply and make sense, so the writers did their best to "spackle the joints" with language that would make sense to an English reader. in a few cases, not many, these can have a small effect on the outcome of the text. Certainly not to any great doctrinal length. I can't think of any large doctrinal parts of the Bible that Mormons "throw out." Additionally, there are parts of the Bible that contradict other parts of the Bible, so you can either put the blame on "translation" or that God is confused. What are you going to go with?

The King James translation is beautiful but you're correct it isn't perfect. And its few imperfections were copied into the Book of Mormon (You do know that sections of Isaiah are copied into the BofM. Maybe you don't know that). But as far as sections "thrown out", yeah, Mormons reject the idea that we are saved by Grace, ie: that Jesus has already paid the penalty for us. Instead they hold to a doctrine where we have to do all we can do in order for his payment to be valid. Elder Bednar gave a talk on this - totally in conflict with Paul's words.

Can you give me an example of parts of the Bible contradicting other parts of the Bible? This is a vague myth that get repeated endlessly and you maybe heard it and are repeating it. If you have specific contradictions I'd like to hear them. I can give you one mormons have used with me and is apropos to the topic of grace vs. works: James 2:14-18. "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." If James is saying you need works to be saved then that is in conflict with Paul's words, but that's not what James is saying. There were members in the early church who, hearing Paul's words on grace, went about confident that they'd been saved but NOT feeding His sheep, as it were. James is addressing this. IF you have faith THEN your works will be a demonstrable sign of that faith. If you don't do any works then you don't have faith in Jesus' words. This whole faith vs. works thing really gets into the minutia, but don't you agree that a minute study of Christianity is superior to a general one?

I'm reminded of Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus is tells of separating the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So these people believe they were following Christ, right? They said hey we we prophesied in Your name and cast out devils in Your name, so they consider themselves followers of Christ. But what is Jesus' reply? I don't know you.

Who are these "Christians" who believe they are followers of Christ but don't really know Him? Anyone else ever wondered this? I don't know who these people are but they might be mormons. Mormons waste a lot of their study on the talks in conference (which are often very good - Jeff Holland is a charismatic orator - but so was Paul Dunn). Or they study the BofM - and there's a lot of stuff that agrees with Christianity in the BofM, although none of those people ever existed and Jesus never came to this continent to deliver the sermon on the mount. If the BofM were an actual record of history we would expect to find some remnant of these huge battles, these populous people. But nothing. And so "faithful" member are left scrambling to explain this lack of evidence. And what is their testimony finally rested on? Faith that J.Smith was telling the truth even though there is nothing to back it up. This is a test of our faith to see if we'll believe in spite of the fact that there is no evidence these people ever existed. Does God really want us to ignore this discrepancy? Is that God's character? Or were the old Testament prophesies supposed to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ to give evidence that the prophets were telling the truth - evidence. Anyway, I love my mormon family and friends but I wish they would follow after truth no matter what the outcome turns out to be. And though it's earth shattering to realize what we were raised in is not as terrifically true as we'd been told, the truth is Jesus still wants us to know Him. The truth about Him. Don't listen to Charles Taze Russell and his JW Watchtower. Same goes for J.Smith and his take on Christianity.

Oh, man. I just thought of something else. Go read the King Follet discourse - it's on lds.org. Joe Smith talks about the true nature of God and it's hilarious. Don't you think the nature of God is kind of a big deal?
 
Last edited:
Lots of contradictions in numbers in the OT. Too lazy to look many of them up. Descriptions of the same battles talk of 4000 horsemen, or 40,000 horsemen, or 7,000 foot soldiers or 700, etc. Can't remember the exact numbers. These are likely transcription errors that have persisted.
 
Back
Top