Reasons you left the LDS church.
- Thread starter Beantown
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Muslims are masters of apologetics. They make every statement in the Quran to be a miraculous metaphor for some scientific discovery. Even that funny story about Alexander the Great fighting a race of subterranean midgets that use their big ears as a blanket.
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Muslims are masters of apologetics. They make every statement in the Quran to be a miraculous metaphor for some scientific discovery. Even that funny story about Alexander the Great fighting a race of subterranean midgets that use their big ears as a blanket.
Thats an unfair assumption to make. I have posted in many religious discussions ( I am muslim myself) and I can fairly say that I have never pimped the scientific "accuracy" of my religion. PS, the link that One Brow posted is quite the poor one. If you click on the hyperlinked excerpts, the words are taken from a flawed english translation of the koran, and even the excerpts are paraphrased poorly, in my opinion. This isn't me blindly defending my religion, I'm just saying you could probably find better sources on the net of maybe pointing out a scientific inaccuracy or two.
Over the years I have noticed that marriages consisting of different races, cultures, religious beliefs, etc. work relatively well until children are introduced into the picture. Beliefs that meant nothing to either parent all of the sudden become very important. Even if both parents come to some sort of understanding regarding religious upbringing there is a lot of outside pressure exerted on the marriage such as the parent's parents and in-laws.
This is a widespread phenomenon in Islam, whether you personally engage in it or not. They call it "i'jaz" and is a common belief among even laymen. And the idea that you mentioned about "inaccurate translation" is almost just as widely used to defend the Quran. The reason Muslim apologists insist on using "pure Arabic" as the only valid language for the Quran is because once you take out all the rhyming and heavy-handedness, all you're left with are implausible stories (I'm being polite) about god's war with the elephant people, and people sleeping in a cave for a thousand years to avoid an evil dictator.
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What makes you say this?? Do you know many muslims? This is the sort of blanket statement that everyone was ripping on GVC for, and here you are doing the exact same thing. I wanna hear some justification for this, other than "oh well just from MY experience, Ive met a lot of muslims who are like this" because, quite frankly, thats an awful reason.
It is best if I just ignore this portion of post. If you're going to go into a discussion with an assumption like that about the quran, then it is high unlikely that you will learn anything from our discourse. Its funny how you act as if you have everything all figured out, yet your knowledge of the islamic faith probably stems from some sort of anti-islamist wordpress article.
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Id try and get people to set aside half an hour and watch these speeches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CfVRTj9tv0
This one is a bit shorter, and just an interesting video to watch; some interesting points are brought up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S_A9ERJWN0
To me, one of the things I have always stressed to my friends (99% of which are christian) is how similar our religions are.
Id also point them out to this article: https://misconceptions-about-islam.com/
Things like the burka, the hijab. NONE are mentioned in the Quran. In the quran, women are only instructed to maintain modesty, no joke. Over time, some of the man-made hadiths have interpreted this as meaning that women should physically guard their modesty.
The most ironic thing about islam, to me, is how tolerant it is of other religions, and other people in general; something that in perceived as being the opposite in modern western civilization. People don't know that Islamic countries were among the first that granted freedom of religion to most of their earlier theocracies, which is the reason you still find minor Christian populations throughout the middle-east. To me, these misconceptions are the only things I would love for most non-muslims to know. For people who are more curious about the religion, I offer links like how congruent science and islam are, and so on but for the most part Id just be super happy if most of these stereotypes were debunked. That is all I could ask for.
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I'm sorry, but it seems you're the one who lacks the knowledge. The idea of I'jaz is deeply entrenched in Muslims culture, and was the major force behind Al-Ghazali's influential Quranic Science movement that crippled the scientific establishment in the Muslim world in the 13th century. Muslim clergy continue to call themselves "the men of knowledge" to this day. Ibn-Qutb, a more recent Muslim philosopher, re-ignited opposition to scientific pursuit by arguing that "Western" science is an affront to Islam, and that Muslims must trust the Quran's proclamations.
Muslims argue endlessly that verses of the Quran, such as the ones describing things like embryonic development, are proof of the Quran's scientific inerrancy. The complaint about "blanket statements" tries to disarm the argument by pretending that since not every single believer acts that way, the phenomenon must be irrelevant. But it is not. I am compelled to simply debate the merits of one's beliefs, not how to avoid issues that make one uncomfortable.
As for my comment about Muslims claiming that Quran is best understood in Arabic; that is a fact. Muslims often say that. It is not even controversial. The rest of the statement is just opinion. After all, reading Quranic Suras like "Al-lahhab" sound impressive in Arabic. The Quranic language is archaic, and thus inherently mystical and intellectual-sounding. But if you actually try to understand the meaning of the sura, it is simply saying "Damn that man Abu Lahab. Does he think his riches will preventing him from burning in hell? No! He will burn. And that evil wife of his will feed the fire that burns him." Now it sounds less like the word of god, and more like Mohammad talking about how much he hates some random person.
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To me, i'jaz means uniqueness, the fact that the Quran is inimitable. To my imam, I am certain that it means the same thing, since we recently went over this concept. It is simply a testament that no man could have written it, and the advice of the surah's should be taken to heart, and that no man-made intervention has been made. To you, the idea of i'jaz seems to mean that (correct me if I'm wrong) the quran is one entire scientific revelation, and that every single event, story, surah is a metaphor for another scientific revelation; coupled with this claim, you say that this is "common knowledge amongst even the laymen" and that inherently, science and islam cannot co-exist. Again, you sharing this view is quite comical to me to say the absolute least; my reluctance to dispute with you is because to me, there aren't many reasons to try and educate an individual who has come up with these preconceptions, not say where he got them from, and spew them forth in a very brash manner, as opposed to asking about a topic he likely doesn't know very much about.
Also, its funny how you attribute the ENTIRE decline of the islamic golden age of science to Al-Ghazali. Please offer some critical sources that shed some insight on this; because, I am finding this claim amusing to say the least. You then name one islamic philosopher, Ibn-Qutb, who has a certain viewpoint of islamic science, and you use the viewpoint of ONE muslim to then blanket 1.1 billion other peoples opinions. Tantamount to me hearing the opinions of one crazy evangelical priest, and tieing that generalization with the rest of christianity. Swing and a miss, siromar.
Its true, the Quran is without a doubt best understood in Arabic. It is the initial language that it was recorded in, thus every other translation inherently has an element of man-made revisions subject to it. I don't understand why you're making this a big deal; this allies to biblical translations as well.
So if you're trying to understand the meaning of any surah of the quran, it basically boils down to mohamman ranting on about how much he hates people? Siromar, how about you give us a bit more context in that "quote" you chose to show your biased views of the quran?? How about you post that surah for everyone to see, and see if all we derive from it is: Mohammad hates this guy, and is just ranting about it. Again, I'm curious. How did you educate yourself over these viewpoints of the Quran??
A few posts back, I mentioned how people tend to convince themselves that they are a part of a consensus, and that those who disagree simply don't understand. You act like one cannot debate with you unless they already are Muslims. But I hate to break it to you, my knowledge comes from living my half of my life in the very heart of Islam, in a Muslim family, attending Friday prayers, fasting Ramadan, celebrating al-fitr, and memorizing the Quran.
I never attributed the decline of the Muslim nation to Al-Ghazali. He was certainly responsible in part. But his major contribution is successfully painting science and philosophy as anti-Islamic. To this day, Arabs use the term "betfalsaf" which literally means "Being philosophical" to indicate someone who talks non-sense. And I do not need to generalize to make my point. Just look at the Muslim world. I don't need to even say anything. Just look at that beacon of progress and tolerance! YOU are the minority. YOUR view of Islam is the radical one. For every video you post on how Muslims must respect women, I can give you 20 that say the opposite. Let me demonstrate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChnpaMK1oLQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJkmRBEOC3o
That took about 3 seconds to find.
And as far as my quote being out of context. Go ahead, help me out. Provide the context!
I never attributed the decline of the Muslim nation to Al-Ghazali. He was certainly responsible in part. But his major contribution is successfully painting science and philosophy as anti-Islamic. To this day, Arabs use the term "betfalsaf" which literally means "Being philosophical" to indicate someone who talks non-sense. And I do not need to generalize to make my point. Just look at the Muslim world. I don't need to even say anything. Just look at that beacon of progress and tolerance! YOU are the minority. YOUR view of Islam is the radical one. For every video you post on how Muslims must respect women, I can give you 20 that say the opposite. Let me demonstrate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChnpaMK1oLQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJkmRBEOC3o
That took about 3 seconds to find.
And as far as my quote being out of context. Go ahead, help me out. Provide the context!
