Reggie Jackson vs Brandon Knight

[Twin Towers]

Jefferson is worthless for help defense, the only blocks he gets are on the man he is guarding. He has terrible instincts and recovery time. This is why Minnesota traded him for scraps, he was not a viable center. If Jefferson was a good defensive player, he wouldn't have such a disastrous defensive rating and +/- rating year after year after year. Being a little out of shape has a lot to do with it. The good news is he is hitting the gym hard this summer.

I never said he is a good defensive center. He just stops people from getting into the paint better than Millsap, Boozer or Okur did. He is an upgrade there. Not a big upgrade but my point is he helps protect the paint better than Millsap does.
If Millsap was 6'10 and his wing span grew the same amount. I would not be arguing to trade Millsap. I love his game offensively and his toughness and hustle etc etc etc. But it won't win us the big games in the playoffs because if his lack of size. Nothing he can do about his game to change that. Millsap would probably be a MVP Candidate if he had REAL size to compete with the elite teams. But he doesn't and he never will be able to compete with the Gasol's, Garnett's, Nowitski's, Aldridge, and even Ibaka now. They over power him with size and length and even strength.

If he could play full time at the SF position than awesome keep him. But I don't think he has the lateral quickness to do it.

 

[Twin Towers]

No insult intended. I was just sharing my opinion of your opinion. Because thats all you have given so far with the "points" you have made. That you have an opinion. I disagree with your opinion, thats all.

That is fine but I give facts and reasons for my opinion rather than just stating someone is wrong for no reason. As I said before no substance. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me. but I don't like being called wrong without reason or facts. To me its a meaningless post unless your backing it up with a reason to your opinion.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Again I never said he ONLY scores when we set him up. But the majority of the time they are set up for him. I would say only 20 percent of his shots are not set up for him. That is my observation of watching him and every other power forward the jazz have had since Malone. Maybe it is a little more but Millsap would not average 17 points per game on a team where they just gave him the ball in the post every once in awhile the way all of the other undersized PF's have to score in the league.

So you are damning Millsap for being on a team that uses him properly? I don't think Brandon Bass/Tyler Hansborough /etc. could do half the things Millsap does on the court. As evidenced by the numerous huge games Millsap has had over the past 2 seasons.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I never said he is a good defensive center. He just stops people from getting into the paint better than Millsap, Boozer or Okur did. He is an upgrade there. Not a big upgrade but my point is he helps protect the paint better than Millsap does.

He does a better job at rejecting some shots in the paint, but he doesn't stop anyone from getting into it.

 

[Twin Towers]

So you are damning Millsap for being on a team that uses him properly? I don't think Brandon Bass/Tyler Hansborough /etc. could do half the things Millsap does on the court. As evidenced by the numerous huge games Millsap has had over the past 2 seasons.

I am not damning him. Wow you blow things out of proportion. My only point is we can't win the big games against the elite teams I listed above with Millsap trying to box people out or trying to stop penetration.

Jefferson blocks more shots but that is not my argument. Jefferson has a wider frame and clogs the lane better than Millsap. He also has a longer reach and contests shots better than Millsap. He doesn't stop anyone over and over. He is not a elite defender by any means. He just provides more than Millsap. I am not a Jefferson homer. If we could somehow trade Jefferson and draft picks for Bogut I would do it or just real center. I am not biased towards a single player except maybe Favors.
I just want size and length to compete with the big teams. Not just win a couple more regular season games because of Millsap.

 

[Brown Notes]

TT-

I am about stopping opposing teams from getting to the hoop. Millsap can't do that. Has never been able to.

BN-Agreed.

TT-

Millsap playing 30 minutes a night for us at the 4

BN-Is not the future of the Jazz. Sap either is a 6th man, a hybrid 3/4, or a trade piece. It's unrealistic to believe that the team will hobble Favors in order to make more 4 minutes for Sap. That was made obvious in April.

TT-

Corbin won't be doing that.(Regarding Sap playing minutes at the 3)

BN-He already did. Corbin is not nearly as rigid as Sloan. This assumption is dead wrong. My suggestion of 10-15 mins at 3 is very realistic, and in fact if Williams is not the pick at 3 that spot will be run by committee. Not many believe Sap can be a full time 3 but then again nobody thought he'd be raining 3's on Miami either. Sap will have to carve out his role on the team any way he can, like he always has. I would not bet against him.

 

[Harcher]

TT,

You said we should trade Milsap due to Corbin's inabiltiy to coach ("he'd play Milsap over Favors") if that is the case we'd better get a new coach.
You said Milsap is unable to stop penetration - By that, I'm guessing you mean provide that "i'm the last resort, defensive center" type of guy. No he's not that.
You said Milsap is not that much better than the host of others. Problem is that is the nature of the NBA. A little bit better is actually significant. Milsap is 23rd best player in NBA according to the NBA's efficiency metric - not the end-all stat, but one view. The likelihood that we get a player in this years draft that ends up being 23rd best in NBA is BIG a risk.
You said Milsap's intangibles are not worth that much (i think i interpreted that correctly.) Well on that i disagree. Milsap intangibles as listed in a previous post are spot on and are key elemnts to have as part of your team mix. It is especially valuable because next year Milsap will be the alpha male or one of them. (Slight aside: I personally think he will make or break Al Jefferson. As Numberica pointed out, it is rare to see a player have year-after-year improvements after 3. Therefore Big Al, will model Sap, or be done as a Jazzman this year.)

Thus, Sap is a pretty darn good player, with excellent intangibles, who has a good contact value. A key piece of the championship puzzle is team chemistry. I think Sap has the right attitude to promote the right chemistry in the locker room.

Now with all that you will probably say "but he still not good enough" I think he is as the matchup dictates. I don't think we need 3 7ftrs in that rotation. Is he as good or as much of a contributor as Tayshawn Prince? (in 2004?) (not asking if he is an identical player, just how much value he adds.)

 

[Twin Towers]

TT,

You said we should trade Milsap due to Corbin's inabiltiy to coach ("he'd play Milsap over Favors") if that is the case we'd better get a new coach.
You said Milsap is unable to stop penetration - By that, I'm guessing you mean provide that "i'm the last resort, defensive center" type of guy. No he's not that.
You said Milsap is not that much better than the host of others. Problem is that is the nature of the NBA. A little bit better is actually significant. Milsap is 23rd best player in NBA according to the NBA's efficiency metric - not the end-all stat, but one view. The likelihood that we get a player in this years draft that ends up being 23rd best in NBA is BIG a risk.
You said Milsap's intangibles are not worth that much (i think i interpreted that correctly.) Well on that i disagree. Milsap intangibles as listed in a previous post are spot on and are key elemnts to have as part of your team mix. It is especially valuable because next year Milsap will be the alpha male or one of them. (Slight aside: I personally think he will make or break Al Jefferson. As Numberica pointed out, it is rare to see a player have year-after-year improvements after 3. Therefore Big Al, will model Sap, or be done as a Jazzman this year.)

Thus, Sap is a pretty darn good player, with excellent intangibles, who has a good contact value. A key piece of the championship puzzle is team chemistry. I think Sap has the right attitude to promote the right chemistry in the locker room.

Now with all that you will probably say "but he still not good enough" I think he is as the matchup dictates. I don't think we need 3 7ftrs in that rotation. Is he as good or as much of a contributor as Tayshawn Prince? (in 2004?) (not asking if he is an identical player, just how much value he adds.)

Good points but its all about size and providing proper defense. As long as Favors plays at least 30 min a game I am fine. Even if millsap can play half at each spot I still would rather have biyombo. He provides the stuff on defense that no one else can on this team. Favors is close but I dont see the risk on the defensive side of the ball for biyombo.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

If we draft Biyombo I doubt he will be able to play more than 15 mpg at most. I see foul trouble being a huge problem for him, as it is for pretty much all young big men who play defense.

 

[Twin Towers]

So everyone who criticized me for saying Millsap for the 5th or 6th pick.........Do you think Millsap and 12th pick is OK now for the 5th pick? Which most people in the other thread approve? Even though were giving away a lot more.

 

[BENTLEY]

I'm not criticizing TT. I think he's trying to solve some problems for the Jazz. I think Millsap probably needs to be traded, I just want to squeeze the most value out of him. I THINK he has pretty nice value in the league. But I'm yet to hear of a trade that indicates this perceived high value.

Biyombo is an unknown how he'll translate to the NBA so I'd like to offset that risk by getting some draft picks included as well. Depending on the package coming back I'm totally open to trading Millsap for Bismack.

 

[vslice02]

The Jazz need to keep Millsap unless they know for sure that they're getting a legitimate player in return. Last season Millsap probably disappointed those fans who expected him to equal or exceed the scoring and rebound production of Boozer, but he did get better last season, and each and every season he's been in the league he continues to improve his game.

The Jazz aren't contending for a championship this season or next - and having Favors compete for a starting spot with a player who plays hard, plays hurt, and gets everything he possibly can get out of his undersized self wouldn't hurt Favors' progression like most fear.

 

[MDAV28]

Again I never said he ONLY scores when we set him up. But the majority of the time they are set up for him. I would say only 20 percent of his shots are not set up for him. That is my observation of watching him and every other power forward the jazz have had since Malone. Maybe it is a little more but Millsap would not average 17 points per game on a team where they just gave him the ball in the post every once in awhile the way all of the other undersized PF's have to score in the league.

68% of Millsap's scoring was assisted.
58% of Jefferson's scoring was assisted.
Not trying to prove a point or anything, just throwing those facts out.