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Ronald Reagan; Savior or Scum

The Pearl said:
The current middle class maybe worse off in a relative sense compared to the top 1% but in terms of an absolute historical context your statement is absurd.
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This right here. There is plenty of data out which suggests that every quintile is better off than it has ever been, despite the fact that the gaps between the top and middle have widened. Thriller and others operate under the fallacy of a zero-sum paradigm.
 
Stoked said:
Confused here. Are you implying that conviceted criminals/incarcerated peopel receive Social Secuirty? Or were you doing a play on words?
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I believe, by using lower case, he was not referring to the specific program, but the more general notion of the state needing to care for inmate, and the cost of this to middle-class families.
 
Like everything he was a mixed bag. He was really good at some things, had some great accomplishments, and completely failed in other areas.
 
bordelais7 said:
This right here. There is plenty of data out which suggests that every quintile is better off than it has ever been, despite the fact that the gaps between the top and middle have widened. Thriller and others operate under the fallacy of a zero-sum paradigm.
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So you are saying the middle class is better than it has ever been? You can't honestly believe that.
 
Following up on that thought and envy in human nature, there are a bunch of fun economic studies out similar to the following:

The moderator has a pool of $100 to give out (no strings attached). There are two participants who will split the money. Participant A is given $10, which means that Participant B gets $90. Participant A is then given the choice to either 1) keep what was given to him, OR 2) forfeit his $10 if it also means that Participant B is required to forfeit his $90.

Logic would dictate that everyone should go with option 1. Results are -- I won't say "surprising".

Variation on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game
 
The Pearl said:
That lifestyle now is considered borderline poverty. What is now considered a middle class lifestyle is above and beyond what any middle class family could have conceived 30 plus years ago. With every generation the bar gets raised higher and living standards and lifestyles become more extraordinary.
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450 sq ft/person isn't poverty in any country of which I am aware, not even today. Nor is owning your own, solidly-built furniture, appliances, etc.

I agree with your basic point: families at almost every level in the US have luxuries undreamed of in the 70s. But don't confuse being a Luddite (as a person today who chose to have the life you described would be) with poverty.
 
bordelais7 said:
Following up on that thought and envy in human nature, there are a bunch of fun economic studies out similar to the following:

The moderator has a pool of $100 to give out (no strings attached). There are two participants who will split the money. Participant A is given $10, which means that Participant B gets $90. Participant A is then given the choice to either 1) keep what was given to him, OR 2) forfeit his $10 if it also means that Participant B is required to forfeit his $90.

Logic would dictate that everyone should go with option 1. Results are -- I won't say "surprising".
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There is also a study I once read that found out that most people would be overwhelming in favor of choosing to make more money than their neighbors in relative terms than in absolute terms. In other words, people willingly choose to make 60k and be the highest paid in their neighborhood or social circle rather than 100k and be the lowest paid in their social circle.
 
candrew said:
Reagan turned almost the entire south Republican in 1980 and it's still that way 30 plus years later.
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LBJ predicted the Republican South in the mid-1960s.

candrew said:
Reagan gets high marks for transforming the military from the ground up. Our armed forces were in shambles after Vietnam. Reagan threw a lot of money at the Pentagon to build bombs and jets; but he also held senior officers accountable for the quality of soldier they produced.
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I hear ending the draft had a lot to do with that.

candrew said:
Reagan did not end The Cold War by himself but he deserves some of the credit.
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Agreed.
 
The Thriller said:
Yes.

We should all be celebrating high unemployment, record underemployment, stagnant wages, record bankruptcies, and lost retirements.

Those 1950s sure sucked.

Look at the distribution of wealth. That's a huge indicator many here are refusing to acknowledge.
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Try to see the forest for the trees. Unemployment and underemployment are problems that should be tackled, but they are not the sole criteria for evaluating a civilization, unless you're into transient partisan arrow slinging.

Going to an average grocery store today, I am confronted with ten different kinds of fruits and vegetables that I've never heard of. I can sample all of them in return for what amounts to an hour's work. A hundred years ago, a king couldn't possibly hope to do that if he spent a nation's wealth on the task. My sister is very much a hippie with no interest in making a lot of money, and who makes a living as a freelance photographer. Her part time job still allows her to afford rent, good nutrition, a connected smartphone, and extra money for entertainment and weed.

Poor people are not poor because they're just inferior or whatever nonsense one hears from demagogues. Just as rich people cannot credit their success to their awesome genes. We are all the product of our make up, environment, and happenstance. And the government can help in creating a better environment, had it not been so utterly broken. I think that's where our efforts should be. Fixing the government. Not waging a war on a functional, but flawed, economic system that enriched our lives in almost every objective measure.
 
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