green
Well-Known Member
This is the most ridiculous, stupid, everything that is wrong with America statement. All credibility you may have somewhat mustered up...out the door. LOL.
San Francisco Becomes First US City With $10 Minimum Wage
- Thread starter Hantlers
- Start date
This is the most ridiculous, stupid, everything that is wrong with America statement. All credibility you may have somewhat mustered up...out the door. LOL.
The thing is that providing others with their means of sustenance gives the provider with a sense of entitlement in regard to the decisions the recipient makes. It creates a dominant/submissive relationship between the provider and the recipient. So this college conservative feels justified in judging people who are using benefits they qualified for. If our system is in anyway just then it is okay for a person on welfare to buy kit-kat bars and giant birthday cakes. If they deserve the money they get then they should be able to use it any damn way they see fit.
If, on the other hand, it is not fair to take by force from some that which they legally and ethically obtained to provide benefits for others who demonstrate sufficient need, then it doesn't matter if they buy milk or kit-kat bars. We should stop using force to take things from the people they belong to, period.
There is no reason to get that heated over an argument with yourself. You will always win. But to set aside the diatribe over subjects nobody raised, I find your passion in defense of human suffering baffling. There is no question that the industrial revolution changed the world, and ushered forth the most successful paradigm in human history. There is also no good reason people, children or otherwise, should be made to choose between starving or working to death. All I'm suggesting is that it people should care about the well being of one another. Growth for the sake of growth does not make much sense. Economy should perform to the benefit of society, not simply for itself. Other countries seem to better balance growth with living standards, and there is no reason not to believe that even better systems can be devised.
green
Well-Known Member
And to answer your stupid question, a business owner's point is to provide a service that someone would want to pay for, and make a profit on his business. At no point, is the point of a business to provide for their employee's lives. That is just a very, very, very positive side effect.
holy crap!
Before the industrial revolution people didn't starve to death because greedy people kept the food from them. Before the industrial revolution there wasn't enough food for everyone.
green
Well-Known Member
Working or starving to death?!? LOL. Have you seen all the food businesses that are now allowed to accept food stamps? You do realize that a family of four can qualify for over $600 in food stamps a MONTH. Starve to death. Laugh-Out-Loud.
How rude. But I guess the more ignorant you are the more sure of yourself you become. And since you completely missed my point, so let me rephrase it in a way cretins can understand. While businesses clearly exist to make money, why should that fact keep us from making rules that force said businesses to act in ways beneficial to the rest of society. You have no inherent right to business. That right is given to you by the current man-made system. And what can be made, can be changed, or even unmade. I do not recognize your right to exploit people, whether that puts you out of business or not.
Again, all of that is irrelevant. I already agreed that the industrial revolution was a very positive thing, specially relative to what came before.
The highlighted line in your comment is very disturbing. In particular the F word...
I don't see the problem. We have plenty of enforced rules. Businesses are forced to pay taxes for an example. They are also forced to follow environmental regulations. I don't mean forced by an army!
green
Well-Known Member
Lol. That is just funny. $10 an hour is exploitation? That is too rich. $10 and hour, working full time, is $20,000. That is a hell of a lot of money. That is not chump change. Does that mean you can have a cell phone? Nope. Does that mean you can live in a big apartment? Nope. Does that mean you can live in the cool city (ala San Francisco)? Nope. Does that mean you can have cable/satellite tv, or internet? Nope. But you don't need any of that stuff to survive, and not having that stuff does not mean you are being exploited. There is nothing wrong with not having those things.
$20,000 is $1,677 a month, and yes, that is tax free, because I am covering your taxes for you. That gives you 400-600 for rent, if you buy a cheap car (<$2,000) and pay it off, that gives you $100 for gas (and that can take you a long way in a cheap corolla/civic/kia). Another $500 for food, and whoa! You have over $500 left over each month. The problem is, you think you DESERVE a cell phone, satellite tv, living in SF, etc, etc. I am sorry my friend, I'll tell you what my dad always told me growing up. You don't deserve ****. Nobody owes you anything. If you want something, you are going to have to work for it, and nobody gets everything they want out of life. Life is full of compromises. If you want to be uneducated and work at McDonald's, you have every right to that. You may not have a cell phone, or satellite tv, or be able to live in San Francisco. But you can be a moron and work at McDonalds. If you want more from life, well you had better gain a skill that someone else can use, so you will be worth something to them. Then you start building your small fortune in this life.
This bullcrap mentality that somehow people are "owed" something is pathetic. You aren't owed anything from anyone. This is your life, take responsibility for it.
Whoa big time flashback! Tufftiger hasn't been around for years.
$10/hr is reasonable as minimum wage is an expensive city. I never said otherwise. My response was simply that if a minimum wage law, or any other regulation, does more benefit than harm, then it should be adopted. I don't share your blind convictions on the absolute way everything should exactly be. I wish I had your clarity!
To say that you owe nobody anything is an empty sentiment. You certainly do owe your success on an environment that allows that success. Take for an example going to school. You have several options here. One, you can get an unskilled job that carries you through (minimum wage, or close to it). That is not possible without some kind of regulation that makes it possible. Two, you take out loans (government help). Or you can have your parents pay for your education. No matter how you slice it, you owe someone something. This applies to almost every aspect of life. Unless you grew on an uninhabited island, where you can survive by self-acquired fruit gathering skills.
Maybe we should base our morality on something more useful than ideological shouts.
You see business as a weak, fragile thingthat blows over in a light wind. I believe businesses adjust to reasonable conditionws, whether set by the market or the government. I'm not surprised someone who has no faith in business is so concerned with these things.
Do you think that a demand that can be created by company A can only be created by company A, and no other company? If not, in what way does your question hold any relevance?
So, when you talked abut 6 people not having a job, you meant one. Also, you think if the minimum wage is not lowered, the person who can get by with 4 people to fill a demand will still hire that fifth person, because?
I'm having real trouble connecting your points and your justifications. Could you explain these connections?
In 2008, with a family of 7, we didn't qualify for that much.
Thanks for your ignorant blather though.
Hantlers
Well-Known Member
It's not 2008 anymore.
LogGrad98
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Who says any minimum wage at all is a reasonable condition? You are sure pro-government intervention for someone who claims to be all about entrepreneurial ventures.
Oh and when did I ever say that businesses are so fragile they fall over in a light wind? Nice attempt at a straw man, but you never answered the question. You feel that all those entrepreneurial ventures come part and parcel with minimum wage laws?
If Bordy can come out of hiding to post, then dammit, so can I.
1. TuffOgathriller is a disgrace to the liberals of the world. I've said it before and I'll probably say it ten thousand more times: He's a moron, and in no way, shape, or form does he represent how most liberals think and/or act.
2. Siromar is a moron. He has done a decent job of fighting for his side of the argument, but loses all credibility when he lowers himself to calling people who don't agree with him, "Cretins". Even though I agree with some of the stuff he says, I simply can't stand the way he says it; therefore, he's a moron and should be taken with the same grain of salt that TuffOgathriller demands. The Trout has spoken, let it be so.
3. OneBrow... /sigh.
4. The usual suspects are here piping on and on about their right wing convictions, and wow, it's amazing how some things never change. Logg the "Centrist" (hahaha, that's some funny **** right there), Scat the "Hannity", and a newcomer, Green the "You're either with us or against us". All this thread is missing is Duck the "9-11 was an inside job" to be a complete corn-laced turd.
5. I've owned several small businesses over the last twelve years and I'm failing to see what the commotion is all about. You guys do realize that they raised the minimum wage by $0.32, right? I'm no math major, but I believe that equals out to $665.00 per year. If you can't afford to pay your employees an additional 665 bucks a year, you probably shouldn't be in business, and you were destined to fail anyway. $665.00 to keep my employee happy and in a better frame of mind? Sounds like money well spent to me. If you're a worthy business owner, then you know that happy employees = happy boss, more money, etc.
6. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Carry on.
1. TuffOgathriller is a disgrace to the liberals of the world. I've said it before and I'll probably say it ten thousand more times: He's a moron, and in no way, shape, or form does he represent how most liberals think and/or act.
2. Siromar is a moron. He has done a decent job of fighting for his side of the argument, but loses all credibility when he lowers himself to calling people who don't agree with him, "Cretins". Even though I agree with some of the stuff he says, I simply can't stand the way he says it; therefore, he's a moron and should be taken with the same grain of salt that TuffOgathriller demands. The Trout has spoken, let it be so.
3. OneBrow... /sigh.
4. The usual suspects are here piping on and on about their right wing convictions, and wow, it's amazing how some things never change. Logg the "Centrist" (hahaha, that's some funny **** right there), Scat the "Hannity", and a newcomer, Green the "You're either with us or against us". All this thread is missing is Duck the "9-11 was an inside job" to be a complete corn-laced turd.
5. I've owned several small businesses over the last twelve years and I'm failing to see what the commotion is all about. You guys do realize that they raised the minimum wage by $0.32, right? I'm no math major, but I believe that equals out to $665.00 per year. If you can't afford to pay your employees an additional 665 bucks a year, you probably shouldn't be in business, and you were destined to fail anyway. $665.00 to keep my employee happy and in a better frame of mind? Sounds like money well spent to me. If you're a worthy business owner, then you know that happy employees = happy boss, more money, etc.
6. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Carry on.