Schooling

[PearlWatson]

I did a little looking since you were so adamant in your declaration that class size doesn't really matter. This is one I found:

Jeremy D. Finn
State University of New York at Buffalo
Charles M. Achilles
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Abstract

A large-scale experiment is described in which kindergarten students and teachers were randomly assigned to small and large classes within each participating school. Students remained in these classes for 2 years. At the end of each grade they were measured in reading and mathematics by standardized and curriculum-based tests. The results are definitive: (a) a significant benefit accrues to students in reduced-size classes in both subject areas and (b) there is evidence that minority students in particular benefit from the smaller class environment, especially when curriculum-based tests are used as the learning criteria. A longitudinal analysis of a portion of the sample indicated that students in small classes outperform their peers in kindergarten classes of regular size and also gain more in reading outcomes during the second year. The question of why these effects are realized remains largely unanswered, but in light of these findings, is particularly important to pursue.

https://aer.sagepub.com/content/27/3/557.short

 

[Stoked]

My childrens school is pathetic as well. I try to supplement that on my own. I have them read, buy work books, use the internet to show them things...

Such as me telling them about the Great Wall of China the other day.

 

[CONAN]

I did a little looking since you were so adamant in your declaration that class size doesn't really matter. This is one I found:



https://aer.sagepub.com/content/27/3/557.short

That's is just one study. The stuff I was going off of was a meta-analysis (I think that's what it is called). Anyway, it isn't just one study, it is a compilation of studies (800 or so last time I checked). And again, not saying class size isn't a factor, just not as big a factor as others.

In other words, my effectiveness as a teacher is less predicated on whether I'm teaching 18 kids versus 35 kids (those are exteme numbers). It is more on the type of teaching.

For example, feedback between teachers and students has an effect size of .72. The effect size of OTRs is .6.

Class size is at .21 (above what I remembered). Here is an excerpt from the study regarding class size: 164 studies between 1980 and 2005 on the effects of reducing class size from 25 to 15 produced an average effect size of d = 0.13 (P.87)
One reason for these small effect sizes relates to teachers of smaller classes using the same teaching methods as they were using with larger classes and thus not optimizing the opportunities provided by having fewer students. Many of the more powerful influences on student learning described in this book could be more effective if the class size was smaller. There could be more (and better) feedback, more interaction with (and between) students, more diagnosis and so on.

If you really want to get into this stuff I suggest finding meta-analysis like this one (Hattie, 2009).

 

[CONAN]

Since Pearl brought it up (and made me dig) and it relates to the thread:

As far as the student goes it is found that goal-setting has an effect size of 1.44 (the highest of anything in the study)

On the homefront the socioeconomic status and home environment rank highest (.57). Socioeconomic status being parental income, education, and occupation.

The school itself is not that big a factor (i.e. admins, finances, etc.).

Accelerated curriculum is .88. Bascially pushing kids along as they achieve more providing more difficult curriculum.

As for within the classroom you have classroom management, classroom cohesion (essentially a family feel to the classroom), and peer influences all above .5. Teacher-student relationships rate very highly.

And then you have the techniques used by teachers themselves.

 

[PearlWatson]

The school itself is not that big a factor (i.e. admins, finances, etc.).

I just can't buy into Admins not being that big of a factor.

Principals choose the curriculum and methods used, at least in elementary schools.
I've known of teachers using an extremely effective method to teach reading for years and then a new principal shows up and demands some other method be used and then holds the teachers responsible for the diminished test scores because of it.

 

[CONAN]

I just can't buy into Admins not being that big of a factor.

Principals choose the curriculum and methods used, at least in elementary schools.
I've known of teachers using an extremely effective method to teach reading for years and then a new principal shows up and demands some other method be used and then holds the teachers responsible for the diminished test scores because of it.

Curriculum comes from the state. I didn't know there were schools where principals choose the curriculum. That's insane.

And principals having that much power over teachers is insane as well. The bottomline is if you can show via data that your methods work than there shouldn't be an issue.

Where principals have effect is in their ability to promote staff training. Because they do have a lot of power there with regards to general themes of the school.

Required anectdotal: I don't know a lot of teachers that are influenced heavily by their principal. But I do know colleagues that are influenced by principal-led leadership teams if that makes sense.

 

[moevillini]

Curriculum comes from the state. I didn't know there were schools where principals choose the curriculum. That's insane.

And principals having that much power over teachers is insane as well. The bottomline is if you can show via data that your methods work than there shouldn't be an issue.

Where principals have effect is in their ability to promote staff training. Because they do have a lot of power there with regards to general themes of the school.

Required anectdotal: I don't know a lot of teachers that are influenced heavily by their principal. But I do know colleagues that are influenced by principal-led leadership teams if that makes sense.

define curriculum...

in Illinois, the state sets broad standards that students are tested for, but the school district, and in some cases the individual schools, choose the specific curriculum to teach the skills needed to score well on the standardized tests

private schools (at least in Illinois) don't have to test their students, so they have more flexibility in choosing their curriculum. Many of them do test their students though, and their curricula don't differ that much from what the public schools are teaching

 

[CONAN]

define curriculum...

in Illinois, the state sets broad standards that students are tested for, but the school district, and in some cases the individual schools, choose the specific curriculum to teach the skills needed to score well on the standardized tests

private schools (at least in Illinois) don't have to test their students, so they have more flexibility in choosing their curriculum. Many of them do test their students though, and their curricula don't differ that much from what the public schools are teaching

The state has a curriculum. As teachers with state licenses we have to follow that. However, districts sometimes mess with them. And I'm sure schools do to some extent but there isn't a lot of variance. There could be but that school would risk funding. Charter and private schools probably have a little more leeway there.

Curriculum is about the same wherever you go. Whoever messes with it can't vary much or they'll get in trouble. Otherwise, what's the point of curriculum if everyone can just do their own thing anyway.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

Ouch.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

I never knew one person could be so dense.

 

[Bronco70]

Definitely some exceptions out there. Wasn't talking about those.

Yeah, I know. I wasn't really addressing your post directly. My apologies.

As much a difference as the charter school has made for my 12 yr old (and it's a huge difference), we left our 10 year old in regular old public school. He does very well in the exact same environment his older brother struggled in. So, a lot of it has to do with the student. My wife and I have always taken a very hands-on approach with the boys' schooling, so that element has always been there. But where some struggle, others will excel.

 

[CONAN]

Yeah, I know. I wasn't really addressing your post directly. My apologies.

As much a difference as the charter school has made for my 12 yr old (and it's a huge difference), we left our 10 year old in regular old public school. He does very well in the exact same environment his older brother struggled in. So, a lot of it has to do with the student. My wife and I have always taken a very hands-on approach with the boys' schooling, so that element has always been there. But where some struggle, others will excel.

Parent/teacher conferences this week and it's tragic that the parents I see I don't need to see. They are involved in their kid's education and come to the conferences. Makes for a pleasant meeting. And the parents I need to see don't come because they don't care.

Again, there are exceptions (neither I nor my wife will go my daughter's conferences this week).