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Science and Statism

babe

Well-Known Member
Science is generally understood as impartial and unbiased efforts to acquire objective understanding of things.

Statism is in my book a religion of sorts, fervently believed in by utopian dreamers who have a doctrine that the government is the solution, usually argued as the only possible solution, for our problems.

What happens when statists control the funding for scientific research?

Go.
 
eugenics?

you're not the first with this idea. . . .

I was going to link a book I read long ago, in the first generation of scientific elitists who found the teats of congressional funding spouts and build up research dynasties in the fifties. . . . the book likened the leading scientific lights to the Indian caste systems' "Brahmins": The New Brahmins

here is a review posted on Amazon:

I started my academic career in 1967 in the Chemistry Department at UCLA. One year into my career this book appeared on the scene. Since I had just joined the "Fraternity," I thought I should read one man's view of the career to which I had just entered as a 26-year old PhD scientist and aspiring academician. Klaw produced an amazing analysis of scientific life in America that is still remarkably relevant today more than 3 decades removed. Some of the famous men in chemistry such as Gilbert Stork (Columbia) are quoted directly, while others, such as RB Woodward (Harvard), are disguised as "George Carpenter." The reader would be surprised that "GC-RBW", at the age of 48, was discouraged at what it takes to stay on top. This discouragement should be tempered by the fact that "GC" had just won the Nobel Prize for his contributons to theoretical organic chemistry! I keep buying copies of this fine book to give to my own students who are entering the academic profession. This is a great read, even (especially) for the young! The game is the same! DA Evans, Harvard Chemistry

https://www.amazon.com/New-Brahmins...d=1426664428&sr=1-1&keywords=The+New+Brahmins
 
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Science and satanism? Plenty of people in the bible belt would support that.
 
The state already funds science. So the answer is 'nothing'.
 
Science and satanism? Plenty of people in the bible belt would support that.

And that's probably how a lot of bible-thumpers would read it. Believing in the "infallible Word" is IMO kin to believing in magic. There has been a historic process of accumulation of materials that have been selected as coherent with pious beliefs of the Jewish tradition which we call "The Old Testament". Christians, however, have chosen to reject certain other writings the Jewish tradition has kept in pious regard, while adding some material of their own, which is called "The New Testament". Another screening process has kept some early Christian material off the "approved" list. St. Jerome, under a mission from an early Pope, spent a lifetime living among the Jews still living in the "holy land" to work on a proper Latin translation of texts which were then included in the Latin Vulgate Bible. Meant for popular reference and study by all believers in their own native language, the language changed over some hundreds of years, and a tradition of reliance on priestly explanations coupled with the Mass and other sacred rituals being read in Latin even when people could no longer understand Latin, resulted in a "professionalized religious bureaucracy" that functioned much like our modern bureaucracies do as they administer government policies to the masses. The invocation of authority and special knowledge creates a "right to rule" in the minds of the administrators, and conditions the public to just accept stuff that is held out as authoritative, even though incomprehensible to the public. . . .
 
The state already funds science. So the answer is 'nothing'.

I just keep hoping for a breakthrough in this discussion with you.

"The state" does not exist in nature, it is a creation of humans. I'd even acknowledge it is a necessity for humans living in close quarters, say more than one little band inside a few hundred square miles even. It is necessary because we prefer laws over continual warfare, or battles to the death over our place on earth. So we formally agree to respect some rights we can agree on, and support some kind of government that can serve as a guarantor of those rights and an arbiter of conflicts. It saves us a lot of trouble.

But historically, we have had problems with governments that go wrong. The honcho with the army decides he can do what he wants. March our boys off to his own wars, and enlarge upon his own realm in the manner of a tyrant.

There was one surprising development in history you seem to have missed, at least so far as recognizing the value it introduced into the scheme of things. The American Revolution was undertaken by some classically-educated elites on a relatively isolated continent, who chaffed at not being respected as British subjects with the same rights folks in England had fought for, the Magna Carta. When they rebelled against the greatest armed power on the face of the planet, they were able to articulate their grievances in a manner that many ordinary folks understood, and were willing to support and fight for, and they succeeded, then negotiated amongst themselves to agree upon a fundamentally limited type of government that was designed to restrict the various possible ways governments have gone wrong throughout history.

fun stuff, this Magna Carta so valued by British subjects was a negotiated settlement to armed conflict almost a thousand years ago. It created a certain set of "rights" for people, and a certain set of limits on the Monarchy.

There has been, however, a certain tension between folks who see a government as a tool suitable to their ideals of things, ever since the concept of human rights achieved any recognition in the Western world. Throughout history, when any government has existed, there have been "Statists", the people who believe the government is wonderful or authoritative, or superior to individuals. It is an inconvenience to these folks to make certain allowances for human rights. Most do, in some way or another, but there is continual chaffing at the inconvenience. Even the most absolute of tyrants will try to put out a good line of propaganda, in hopes of calming the masses of ordinary folks. Some will even offer bread and milk, free. Or whatever else it may seem to take to keep the people in line.

So I do this little bit about contrasting the objectives of statists with the things I would like to see as recognized human rights, like the right to ask questions and look for solutions to problems, for both collective groups of humans and individuals.

Science was not state supported when it emerged from the "dark ages" of medieval Europe, neither was it state-supported when it thrived in the Middle East during those European dark ages. It was not state-supported in Greece or Rome, either. I guess maybe I don't know everything, after all, but it seems to me that probably no great civilization of the past ever had a state-supported system of enquiry that sought to independently, objectively, develop a body of demonstrable verifiable technology or science. Probably, the small number of folks who had such a thirst for knowledge had the sense not to agitate for social change. . . . .

But seriously Siro, let's discuss what science is, or should be, and how an authoritative clergy or established professional authority can sometimes put a drag on enquiry. . . . .
 
I just keep hoping for a breakthrough in this discussion with you.

Like I said, you consider your position to be inherently true (as evidenced by that statement), and in our previous debates, you have the tendency to ignore what I'm saying and to keep singing to your own tune.

"The state" does not exist in nature, it is a creation of humans. I'd even acknowledge it is a necessity for humans living in close quarters, say more than one little band inside a few hundred square miles even. It is necessary because we prefer laws over continual warfare, or battles to the death over our place on earth. So we formally agree to respect some rights we can agree on, and support some kind of government that can serve as a guarantor of those rights and an arbiter of conflicts. It saves us a lot of trouble.

There is no such thing as a state of nature. Hunting with stone weapons in the jungle is just as much in our state of nature as using the iPhone and building space stations. They just occurred at different points in time. The arbitrary Rousseau-ian imposition on our nature is thus an invalid starting point for any debate. The rest of what you said about the necessity of government is true.

But historically, we have had problems with governments that go wrong. The honcho with the army decides he can do what he wants. March our boys off to his own wars, and enlarge upon his own realm in the manner of a tyrant.

Yes. We've had problems with corporations going wrong, individuals going wrong, and everything else in between. Nothing is absolute, and we're discussing the relative merits of each perspective.

There was one surprising development in history you seem to have missed, at least so far as recognizing the value it introduced into the scheme of things. The American Revolution was undertaken by some classically-educated elites on a relatively isolated continent, who chaffed at not being respected as British subjects with the same rights folks in England had fought for, the Magna Carta. When they rebelled against the greatest armed power on the face of the planet, they were able to articulate their grievances in a manner that many ordinary folks understood, and were willing to support and fight for, and they succeeded, then negotiated amongst themselves to agree upon a fundamentally limited type of government that was designed to restrict the various possible ways governments have gone wrong throughout history.

Putting limits on the role and power of any organization is essential. I have no disagreement with this. But we also have to recognize that the Founders were not all-knowing and they lived in a different age. We cannot expect a stasis of thought due to religious attachment to a certain set of ideals without continuous evaluation of the value of such ideals.

fun stuff, this Magna Carta so valued by British subjects was a negotiated settlement to armed conflict almost a thousand years ago. It created a certain set of "rights" for people, and a certain set of limits on the Monarchy.

There has been, however, a certain tension between folks who see a government as a tool suitable to their ideals of things, ever since the concept of human rights achieved any recognition in the Western world. Throughout history, when any government has existed, there have been "Statists", the people who believe the government is wonderful or authoritative, or superior to individuals. It is an inconvenience to these folks to make certain allowances for human rights. Most do, in some way or another, but there is continual chaffing at the inconvenience. Even the most absolute of tyrants will try to put out a good line of propaganda, in hopes of calming the masses of ordinary folks. Some will even offer bread and milk, free. Or whatever else it may seem to take to keep the people in line.

So I do this little bit about contrasting the objectives of statists with the things I would like to see as recognized human rights, like the right to ask questions and look for solutions to problems, for both collective groups of humans and individuals.

I don't understand what you're saying. Government is created by individuals. It is in a way superior to the individual as it is made up by more than 1 individual. But the whole argument is fallacious. What matters is that for any kind of moral law to make sense, it has to be established at a level higher than the individual's. The only response to "I don't care if something is right or wrong, I'll harm someone if it benefits me" is society's retaliation. We're either in free competition with one another is a world with no moral rule (apart from that of whatever individual gains more power relative to others), or we exist under the terms of a social contract that is above any individual. I think the latter makes for a much more productive and just world. The same applies to human rights. They do not exist outside of human definitions, and cannot be defended without collective action.

Science was not state supported when it emerged from the "dark ages" of medieval Europe, neither was it state-supported when it thrived in the Middle East during those European dark ages. It was not state-supported in Greece or Rome, either. I guess maybe I don't know everything, after all, but it seems to me that probably no great civilization of the past ever had a state-supported system of enquiry that sought to independently, objectively, develop a body of demonstrable verifiable technology or science. Probably, the small number of folks who had such a thirst for knowledge had the sense not to agitate for social change. . . . .

But seriously Siro, let's discuss what science is, or should be, and how an authoritative clergy or established professional authority can sometimes put a drag on enquiry. . . . .

It's nice to see someone recognize the myth of the Dark Ages. Science did indeed flourish in the early middle ages in the ME and in the late middle ages in Europe. But two things are worth mentioning. One, it was often supported by government funding (I'm including the Church in Europe) like the French universities of the 1300s, or the scientists of the Caliph's courts. Secondly, science was much MUCH simpler back then, and individuals could make significant progress on their own, with little funding as long as they're born into decent wealth. Nowadays, complexity requires management. This does not necessarily mean the government, but since the government is the only collectivist institution that is supposed to work for the public good (as opposed to merchants competing for resources), it makes for the best managing body. It is also very important that we maintain the continuity of progress, which again necessitates collectivist action that exist above the level of individual. I'm not interested in the Greek's fleeting (if phenomenal) success. I am interested in the continuation of the scientific path until the very end. This again requires collectivist action.

A just government is necessary for keeping the peace, enforcing objective morality, tackling large problems (or do we leave it to American individuals to try to tackle green house emissions in India?), and countless other functions. Nobody is saying that the government should be all that exists. I think a libertarian approach to society that focuses on the dynamics of individual competition and accomplishment is essential to a free and prosperous society, but the goal is difficult to achieve without the existence of institutions that can supersede the will of the individual, if necessary.
 
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La cucaracha, couldn't have found a better name. Well, actually 'escarabajo pelotero' would fit you better, if you don't know they're those roaches that make balls out of rolling larger animals ****, for further use.

You must have stacked a life supply at home by now haven't you? You know, the 'preppers' thing...
 
Is this really how you want to spend your day bro?

No I was thinking about having a debate as to why I think small government is good to make the day go by faster and then watch a Jazz game at 8.30
Seems like you just enjoy ****ting around with childish arguments the likes of 'your mom' and such.

But hey you're right, not worth it to waste any more time with this. You have a good day.
 
Is this really how you want to spend your day bro?

Apparently it is, so let me elaborate first on my statement:

Go at it a few more years before you even bother. Babe and I have gone the rounds before, and it's really not worth the struggle unless you can laugh with the occasional "Your mom". I think maybe three or four of my posts to babe have made any real difference in the matter.

As for statism, I get it. You don't like it. Great! You want the smallest government possible... great! But that's where humanity started, little to no government. So it's been tried. So has big government. It's all been tried, and it's all failed. Just like capitalism will fail, communism will fail, socialism will fail, monarchies, democracies, social dictatorships, unitary parliamentary constitutional republics, oligarchies, and theocracies.

Why that matters, and speaking to babe's original post:

Yes, Science is a generally understood as impartial and unbiased efforts to acquire objective understanding of things. That's a FAIR definition.

Statism is a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs. In OUR government, our leaders, who do have considerable pull bordering on statism, often don't run with the science. That speaks of the people electing those leaders, and the dollars swaying those leaders once they arrive in office.

What happens when statists control the funding for scientific research? Ted Cruz looking like an idiot, a ******* that probably looks a lot like yourself bringing a snowball in to disprove global warming, and the house special committee overseeing space and technology leadership asking stupid questions.

But being an ignorant little twit, you probably didn't bother reading my soapbox thread that can be found here:

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?32537-Education-level-of-Committee&highlight=Space+Technology

that expresses, I believe, parts of the same issue babe's trying to outline here; Either Ignorance or Corruption has gotten to our leaders, and it needs to be addressed.

But I must be some sack of **** that never thinks about these things and is only ever good for derail/trolling... right?
 
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