Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
Didn't read that part when I posted. Only skimmed over it now and am kind of "meh" on it.
So gay!!!
- Thread starter TroutBum
- Start date
Didn't read that part when I posted. Only skimmed over it now and am kind of "meh" on it.
Hopper
Banned
Herbert Marcuse (to whom the article I cited gives some credit for "***** theory"), was a hard-core Commie and new left theorist with a large and devoted following. He argued that "tolerance," as a general proposition, was abhorrent and "repressive." His argument, in a piece called "Repressive Tolerance," was that general "tolerance" allowed too many things which he and his ilk disapproved of to be deemed "acceptable."
He went on to argue that "tolerance" should in fact be VERY selective, with "progressive" commie ideals being widely promoted, and all contrary views being vigorously supressed (rather than "tolerated'). He, along with commie doctrines distilled in the soviet union in the '20's, has rightfully been given a good deal of credit for establishing, and "enforcing," doctrines of "political correctness."
Of course, to promote their agenda, these types always cynically appeal to naive, well-intentioned notions of tolerance held by anybuddy who might otherwise oppose them.
He went on to argue that "tolerance" should in fact be VERY selective, with "progressive" commie ideals being widely promoted, and all contrary views being vigorously supressed (rather than "tolerated'). He, along with commie doctrines distilled in the soviet union in the '20's, has rightfully been given a good deal of credit for establishing, and "enforcing," doctrines of "political correctness."
Of course, to promote their agenda, these types always cynically appeal to naive, well-intentioned notions of tolerance held by anybuddy who might otherwise oppose them.
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Hopper
Banned
"GLSEN works assiduously to build a wide network of student organizers. It looks for recruits as young as 14, who in turn are to bring on board other students to form gay/straight alliances or other homosexual-themed student clubs at their schools. Glancing over the biographies of 2002’s student organizers reveals a uniform faith among them that experimenting with a range of homosexual behaviors serves the cause of civil rights."
So, I guess I git it, then, eh? If ya don't "experment with a range of homosexual behaviors," then you're just a bigoted, reactionary, facist who don't wanna "serve the cause of civil rights," eh?
So, I guess I git it, then, eh? If ya don't "experment with a range of homosexual behaviors," then you're just a bigoted, reactionary, facist who don't wanna "serve the cause of civil rights," eh?
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
Has it occurred to you in this rant you have going that you're freaking out about activist groups? Activist groups do what they do. But they represent the tiniest fraction of the gay community even if they purport to speak for them. It would be like forming an opinion on blacks by pointing out what the NAACP or the Black Panthers do. Or drawing conclusions about Jewish people from the whatever the Anti-Defamation League is up to these days.
The bottom line is you don't like gay people and think there's something wrong with them. All this other crap is just you rationalizing it with a phony smear campaign. And at the end of the day, absolutely nobody should be shocked that a historically persecuted group is not merely interested in tolerance. Like the Irish, Italians, Blacks, Jews, and Women before them, they're not settling for tolerance, nor should they.
Hopper
Banned
As far as I know, bein Irish, Italian, Black, Jewish, or female wasn't never deemed to be a form of mental illness by an association of professional psychiatrists like the APA, eh?
chemdude1232
Active Member
I don't quite see why a group's prior history of being mislabeled as mentally ill has to be the branching point between Irish, Italians, Blacks, Jewish folk, and women vs. homosexuals.
Regardless of your prior posts, billyshelby raised the more overarching point that the aforementioned groups have been historically persecuted, just as homosexuals have been in more recent history. (This isn't even really touching the topic that even IF homosexuals were considered mentally ill, it is deemed by most people in polite society to be even worse to persecute the mentally handicapped.)
Hopper
Banned
Well, Chem, ya know, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its diagnostic list of mental disorders in 1973, despite substantial protest (see Socarides, 1995). The A.P.A. was strongly motivated by the desire to reduce the effects of social oppression. The desire to "reduce social oppression" is admirable, but the rest of the world didn't really agree. The psychiatric manual used by other nations, i.e., the International Classification of Diseases, kept homosexuality on it's list of mental illnesses until 1992.
Since then, more recent research indicates that homosexuals have an abnormally high rate of certain types of mental problems. Here is an excerpt from the respected journal "Archives of General Psychiatry," for example:
"NO TOPIC has caused the field of psychiatry more controversy than homosexuality, and 2 articles in this issue of the ARCHIVES are likely to reopen past controversies and begin new ones. These studies contain arguably the best published data on the association between homosexuality and psychopathology, and both converge on the same unhappy conclusion: homosexual people are at a substantially higher risk for some forms of emotional problems, including suicidality, major depression, and anxiety disorder. Preliminary results from a large, equally well-conducted Dutch study generally corroborate these findings." (Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1999;56:883-884.)
To the extent they have been "persecuted" it is for their behavior, not their country of origin, religion, or sex. Child molestors like members of NAMBLA consider themselves to be "persecuted" too, and maybe they are, but.....Maybe there are psychological problems associated with homosexuality, maybe there aint. Maybe they have been "persecuted," maybe they aint. To the extent these propositions are true, it aint because they are "Like the Irish, Italians, Blacks, Jews, and Women," that's the point, see?
chemdude1232
Active Member
Do you have access to that article from the Archives? I'll have to wait until tomorrow (when I'm at work and thus have access) to read it. I'd be interested in seeing the section labeled "Potential Explanations," simply because I'd bet a shiny nickel that some of those reasons for emotional pathology would include pressure from society/condemnation from society. If you knew the bulk of society didn't like you for some reason, wouldn't you be depressed and have emotional problems?
I consider billyshelby's point - and the one I'm making - as more of a generality. Persecution is persecution, no matter whether it is catalyzed by race, age, gender, orientation, etc. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but then again that's the beauty of perspective. "Ain't it?" as you'd say.
I consider billyshelby's point - and the one I'm making - as more of a generality. Persecution is persecution, no matter whether it is catalyzed by race, age, gender, orientation, etc. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but then again that's the beauty of perspective. "Ain't it?" as you'd say.
chemdude1232
Active Member
Also, take the phrase "recent research" with a grain of salt. Not sure about psychiatry, but some other sciences consider 11 year old research to be outdated.
Hopper
Banned
Naw, I don't, sorry, Chem, but I'd be interested to hear what you find if you read it and care to share. I'm not sayin that gays should be "persecuted," I just sayin it aint as simple as "persecution is persecution," as you say. Should child molestors be shunned by society ("persecuted")? If so, is it just the same as persecution of, say, Jews? Child molestors don't last long in the joint....Jews do. Go figure, eh?
Biley's claim, which is what I was responding to to begin with, wasn't even that homosexuals "should not be persecuted." It was, as I understood it, that their behavior should be "affirmed," not merely "tolerated."
Assuming that you are willing to "tolerate" child molestors, because they are a "persecuted group," Chem, do you think they should be willing to "settle" for that? Or should they, as a traditionally persecuted group, be entitled to demand more, i.e., affirmation of their behavior?
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billyshelby
Well-Known Member
I don't know about that. I'm sure you can find some real compelling 'scientific' studies about blacks if you go back far enough. And I'll bet you can find stuff on those other groups as well. The larger point is they were all deemed mentally unfit to some degree by general society, in some cases lesser life forms, and in all cases not deserving of equal treatment. But do you have scientific proof Irish, Italians, Blacks, Jews, or Women aren't actually inferior in some way? Without that proof, maybe we should have dismissed their claims of unfair persecution until we had it.
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
Honestly, aint, child molesters? Forgetting the fact this is an obvious attempt to smear by association (however contrived the association itself), child molestation is not a consensual sexual relationship. It is a predatory one. One party cannot give informed consent to their choices, and is almost exclusively manipulated into a relationship, while the other party almost exclusively understands what they are doing is against the law (leaving ethics completely out of it.) There is no persecution involved with child molestation.