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The 2024 Election Thread - Because It's Never Too Early to Feel Disappointed

I thought about this alot. So pro life people (anti abortion really if we are being honest) are generally religious people and think abortion shouldn't be allowed because it's killing one of Gods innocent children.
But when you read the Bible you realize that God is pro abortion.
He set about a huge flood (Noah's ark story) to kill everyone and everything. Are you telling me none of the people killed by the flood were pregnant?
God also kills all of Sodom and Gomorrah because they were wicked sinners. Well I imagine a bunch of wicked sinners were probably doing hella fornicating and with lots of fornicating there is bound to be some pregnancies. So I'm quite certain that when God killed all of Sodom and Gomorrah there were some pregnant sinners in the bunch with innocent babies in their bellies who were also killed (aborted) by God.
Really going old testament with this one, which most think of parables if anything. For me, with abortion, or anything, it is about being consistent in viewpoints, which I see fallacies on both sides.

I am not religious at all, but I personally think all life has value, and when we start putting limits, or definitions on life, then we are devaluing human life generally and it is a slippery slope.

Roe and subsequently PP v Casey under the Sup. Ct. has set the current law is based on viability to determine life, which is somewhat arbitrary, as children have lived being born prior to being viable under the current legal standard. I'm all for protecting someone's rights and burdens, but it is hard to offset any burden with taking a life, and we have chosen to do this legally based on an arbitrary definition for convenience.

Here is a sad fact pattern, which has happened a number of times: A pregnant mother with a young fetus (less than viable) is beaten, shot, drugged etc., which results in the death of the fetus (and sometimes the mother dies as well). The perpetrator, which charged, is generally charged with the death of the fetus as well as the mother (if the mother dies). Which seems odd since we have case law from Roe/Casey stating that a "non-viable" fetus is not a life. So then to clarify, the law is really stating that it only becomes legal not murder if a mother chooses convenience over the life of the fetus.

If we all want to agree that we can set an arbitrary value to life, which in turns show we can limit the value of a human, I'm on board, but let's be honest about it and utilize it in other facets of society as well. We could just as easily say a life is not a life if it can't be viable on it's own, without intervening from others. So invalids, or babies may not be life. But we don't need to call it legal killing, just legalized post-birth abortion). In some ways this sounds absurd, but it is really all about our willingness to define the value and existence of a human life.

On the flip side, the same people that are pro-life are pro death penalty (generally), and vice versa with pro-choice and death penalty, which, again makes zero sense. Either a life has value, and we should preserve it, or it doesn't. We often let our political views overtake our ability to take a consistent position on a subject.
 
Okay, but all of your examples are of people shooting people. If the words on the car had read “Nancy Pelosi” or even “Socialists” I would agree. That isn’t the case. The car represents socialism which is an idea. MTG is fighting an idea. She wants to destroy an idea. That isn’t violence. Doing damage to an idea isn’t violence.

If you take this video literally, it is a gun shooting a Toyota Prius; No violence depicted. If you take the video figuratively, as it is supposed to be taken, it is MTG combating an idea; Again, no violence depicted. The only way to get violence out of this is to do a half literal (the gun) and half figurative with an additional imaginary leap from socialism to supporters of socialism. It seems like work to go that far to find offence.
I also find it strange that she is shooting a Toyota Prius. Like using an efficient vehicle that doesn't put out as much pollution = socialism.
 
I guess when someone gets an abortion it's just collateral damage from the sinning that created the pregnancy.
You could argue that. They will argue that it's the sin of murder on top of the sin of fornication or whatever.
 
I also find it strange that she is shooting a Toyota Prius. Like using an efficient vehicle that doesn't put out as much pollution = socialism.
Psh, yeah, it's more like FASCISM! Amirite?
 
Really going old testament with this one, which most think of parables if anything. For me, with abortion, or anything, it is about being consistent in viewpoints, which I see fallacies on both sides.

I am not religious at all, but I personally think all life has value, and when we start putting limits, or definitions on life, then we are devaluing human life generally and it is a slippery slope.

Roe and subsequently PP v Casey under the Sup. Ct. has set the current law is based on viability to determine life, which is somewhat arbitrary, as children have lived being born prior to being viable under the current legal standard. I'm all for protecting someone's rights and burdens, but it is hard to offset any burden with taking a life, and we have chosen to do this legally based on an arbitrary definition for convenience.

Here is a sad fact pattern, which has happened a number of times: A pregnant mother with a young fetus (less than viable) is beaten, shot, drugged etc., which results in the death of the fetus (and sometimes the mother dies as well). The perpetrator, which charged, is generally charged with the death of the fetus as well as the mother (if the mother dies). Which seems odd since we have case law from Roe/Casey stating that a "non-viable" fetus is not a life. So then to clarify, the law is really stating that it only becomes legal not murder if a mother chooses convenience over the life of the fetus.

If we all want to agree that we can set an arbitrary value to life, which in turns show we can limit the value of a human, I'm on board, but let's be honest about it and utilize it in other facets of society as well. We could just as easily say a life is not a life if it can't be viable on it's own, without intervening from others. So invalids, or babies may not be life. But we don't need to call it legal killing, just legalized post-birth abortion). In some ways this sounds absurd, but it is really all about our willingness to define the value and existence of a human life.

On the flip side, the same people that are pro-life are pro death penalty (generally), and vice versa with pro-choice and death penalty, which, again makes zero sense. Either a life has value, and we should preserve it, or it doesn't. We often let our political views overtake our ability to take a consistent position on a subject.
The crux of the abortion debate hinges on when you believe a fetus is a true human life. Generally anti-abortion often believe it is a life at conception, and pro-abortion believe it is a life only if it is viable outside the womb. And really, unless we have some huge scientific breakthrough that "proves" one or the other, we'll literally never bridge that divide.
 
I simply find it strange how much our society loves guns.
That doesn’t seem strange to me at all, both as a nation and doubly for Utah as a state.

The United States was founded on the idea of empowering the individual. The Social Contract Theory influencing the founders is almost entirely John Locke, and specifically his Second Treatise of Government. Very few things empower an individual as much as a gun does.

As far as Utah goes, Mormons were the best gun designers in the history of the world. The Colt 1911 45ACP that served as the go-to for the US Military is a Mormon design. The machine guns in the wings of every American WWII fighter plane I can think of was a Mormon design. The Ma Deuce machine gun still in use to this day by our military is an evolved Mormon design. The Barrett 82A1 .50 caliber Greene fired in that video is not a Mormon design but the cartridge it fires is.

Switzerland made nice watches. The Dutch made good wooden shoes. Japan made compelling anime. The Mormons made guns. Seeing as Missouri had issued the Mormon Extermination Order and began to carry it out, I can see why the Mormons didn’t turn to making watches, wooden shoes, or anime.

The gun culture of today is history’s legacy.
 
The crux of the abortion debate hinges on when you believe a fetus is a true human life. Generally anti-abortion often believe it is a life at conception, and pro-abortion believe it is a life only if it is viable outside the womb. And really, unless we have some huge scientific breakthrough that "proves" one or the other, we'll literally never bridge that divide.
That is outside the scope of science. We can already definitively prove a fetus is life by every scientific definition of life we have. We can also analyse the DNA to conclusively prove that life is human in origin. That is where science ends. Should assisted suicide be legal? Should capital punishment be part of our society? Should women have a privilege of being allowed to end human life if that life hasn't passed a certain development threshold? Those questions are up to us as a society.
 
That doesn’t seem strange to me at all, both as a nation and doubly for Utah as a state.

The United States was founded on the idea of empowering the individual. The Social Contract Theory influencing the founders is almost entirely John Locke, and specifically his Second Treatise of Government. Very few things empower an individual as much as a gun does.

As far as Utah goes, Mormons were the best gun designers in the history of the world. The Colt 1911 45ACP that served as the go-to for the US Military is a Mormon design. The machine guns in the wings of every American WWII fighter plane I can think of was a Mormon design. The Ma Deuce machine gun still in use to this day by our military is an evolved Mormon design. The Barrett 82A1 .50 caliber Greene fired in that video is not a Mormon design but the cartridge it fires is.

Switzerland made nice watches. The Dutch made good wooden shoes. Japan made compelling anime. The Mormons made guns. Seeing as Missouri had issued the Mormon Extermination Order and began to carry it out, I can see why the Mormons didn’t turn to making watches, wooden shoes, or anime.

The gun culture of today is history’s legacy.
That doesn’t seem strange to me at all, both as a nation and doubly for Utah as a state.

The United States was founded on the idea of empowering the individual. The Social Contract Theory influencing the founders is almost entirely John Locke, and specifically his Second Treatise of Government. Very few things empower an individual as much as a gun does.

As far as Utah goes, Mormons were the best gun designers in the history of the world. The Colt 1911 45ACP that served as the go-to for the US Military is a Mormon design. The machine guns in the wings of every American WWII fighter plane I can think of was a Mormon design. The Ma Deuce machine gun still in use to this day by our military is an evolved Mormon design. The Barrett 82A1 .50 caliber Greene fired in that video is not a Mormon design but the cartridge it fires is.

Switzerland made nice watches. The Dutch made good wooden shoes. Japan made compelling anime. The Mormons made guns. Seeing as Missouri had issued the Mormon Extermination Order and began to carry it out, I can see why the Mormons didn’t turn to making watches, wooden shoes, or anime.

The gun culture of today is history’s legacy.
You think LOVING guns isn't weird?
I love my wife and kid and dog.
I don't love my fishing pole or my pocket knife or my guns. They are tools.
 
That is outside the scope of science. We can already definitively prove a fetus is life by every scientific definition of life we have. We can also analyse the DNA to conclusively prove that life is human in origin. That is where science ends. Should assisted suicide be legal? Should capital punishment be part of our society? Should women have a privilege of being allowed to end human life if that life hasn't passed a certain development threshold? Those questions are up to us as a society.
It is a question of viability. Not viable = not alive. If it can't survive outside the womb it's not a separate life from the mother. Or so the argument goes.

My personal view is somewhere in between, so I'm not advocating 1 "side" or the other. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Please any hard-core pro-abortionists correct me if I'm wrong or feel free to otherwise expound.
 
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It is a question of viability. Not viable = not alive. If it can't survive outside the womb it's not a separate life from the mother. Or so the argument goes.

My personal view is somewhere in between, so I'm not advocating 1 "side" or the other. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Please any hard-core pro-abortionists correct me if I'm wrong or feel free to otherwise expound.
Exactly, that is the "argument" or justification to somewhat arbitrarily define when a life is not a life. Not based on science, based upon a convenience or a determination of what society deems to be using science as a justification, when the determination is simply arbitrary. Weighing a potential burden against the value of life.

We can try to justify it any which way, but ultimately, we are making a social decision when a human being has enough value to deserve to exist.

To be clear, I'm not arguing one side over the other either, but we must admit if we can arbitrarily define the value of a human being in one context, we can do in others if we (or our leaders) agree as a society. If we can weigh one burden against a life, then we can weigh other burdens against the value of a life.

If that is what society deems appropriate, then so be it, but call it what it is.
 
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