The Adjustment that Should be made but Won't

[bordelais7]

Obviously my conclusion is that I think they will be worse, not better. Did it occur to you that the correct logic is to play players at their natural position to get the best production. Maybe playing Fes or Okur with AJ, so AJ can play PF makes more sense than taking Deron out of his natural position. Maybe playing Hayward ahead of Bell is better as Hayward is naturally a SG and Bell...well Bell sucks. So far Sloan has insisted on playing certain players in spots other than their natural position. Almost every time AK plays at PF he excels. That is his most natural position. As it is we are already playing people out of their natural spot so taking another out of his won't make us better. It is making a bad move to fix other bad moves and that is bad logic to begin with.

That isn't to say that, depending on matchups, injury, and even to show a different look at times, it isn't a good idea to play Deron at the 2 or AK at SF or play AJ and Sap together, but so far playing them there EVERY GAME hasn't worked very well.

But what if Deron is the best SG on the team?

 

[gomretat]

The logic holds on the offensive end of the floor but not on the defensive end. That was not an issue during the Detroit ers of microwave, Dumars, and Isaiah because many teams were structured that way. Boston did the same things with DJ and Ainge.

In the current NBA, size matters. And I seriously doubt that it extends Deron's career to get abused and posted up continually by bigger longer 2's. BTW, Sloan has demonstrated he is willing to do this kind of thing based upon doing it with Deron and Fish. Ironically, he was was fried on this board for doing so.

 

[LogGrad98]

so, then, in your estimation, how many minutes can/should DW play at SG?

But what if Deron is the best SG on the team?

For the second quote, that is true, and just sad. Not sad that Deron is our best guard period no matter which one, but sad that we still after this many years cannot find a SG that is at least as good as our displaced PG.

For the first quote, the bad thing is this brings out another weakness we have. I think his minutes played at the 2 should be dependent on matchups and scouting...in other words, coaching. That means that the coach should analyze what is going on in the game or in an upcoming game and make that call. Which means that the only way this can happen with our coach is to have a set rotation with set minutes regardless of what we actually need during the game.

But I could see Deron playing anywhere from a few minutes or none at the 2 up to I don't know maybe 12-15 min, depending on. I think he and Watson together could give a look that many other teams cannot match, but that it can be exploited when they make adjustments.

Wow I wish we had a coach that coached.

 

[LogGrad98]

The logic holds on the offensive end of the floor but not on the defensive end. That was not an issue during the Detroit ers of microwave, Dumars, and Isaiah because many teams were structured that way. Boston did the same things with DJ and Ainge.

In the current NBA, size matters. And I seriously doubt that it extends Deron's career to get abused and posted up continually by bigger longer 2's. BTW, Sloan has demonstrated he is willing to do this kind of thing based upon doing it with Deron and Fish. Ironically, he was was fried on this board for doing so.

I agree that pushing Deron into this role could really take it's toll on him physically.

And the reason Sloan got flamed for it is that he insisted on it, every game, in standard rotation, for set periods of time, no matter what. When it was obvious that the matchup was against us, he did it anyway. When the other team made adjustments to take advantage of the size issue at the 2 positions, Sloan just soldiered along, and we got to watch Deron getting man-handled by bigger guards and watch Fisher be a sub-standard PG compared to Deron.

I think it's fine as a weapon to use as needed. The way Sloan does just isn't effective enough to take Deron off the PG spot for any serious amount of time.

 

[gregbroncs]

I like the Idea Pearl. As long as Price does not become the backup PG. If Deron and Watson are always on the floor as the PG I think Watson starting is a great idea. It gives both Watson and Deron someone to run with early in the games and maybe a good start towards a better starting unit.

 

[gomretat]

I agree that pushing Deron into this role could really take it's toll on him physically.

And the reason Sloan got flamed for it is that he insisted on it, every game, in standard rotation, for set periods of time, no matter what. When it was obvious that the matchup was against us, he did it anyway. When the other team made adjustments to take advantage of the size issue at the 2 positions, Sloan just soldiered along, and we got to watch Deron getting man-handled by bigger guards and watch Fisher be a sub-standard PG compared to Deron.

I think it's fine as a weapon to use as needed. The way Sloan does just isn't effective enough to take Deron off the PG spot for any serious amount of time.

One of the MANY myths on this board is Jerry's rotations. In short, he has been more rigid when he had two HOF players and when he had a suspect bench. In other times not so much.

 

[PrinceJL]

GS is gonna give up Steph Curry for Paul George & TJ Ford? Are you serious?

my post read: "where NJ sends GS 2 1st (as we too on Outlaw's contract) & GS has the option to swap 1st w/ IND" so they get George/Ford/2 1st(s)/better of IND-GS 1st

 

[The Pearl]

Obviously my conclusion is that I think they will be worse, not better. Did it occur to you that the correct logic is to play players at their natural position to get the best production. Maybe playing Fes or Okur with AJ, so AJ can play PF makes more sense than taking Deron out of his natural position. Maybe playing Hayward ahead of Bell is better as Hayward is naturally a SG and Bell...well Bell sucks. So far Sloan has insisted on playing certain players in spots other than their natural position. Almost every time AK plays at PF he excels. That is his most natural position. As it is we are already playing people out of their natural spot so taking another out of his won't make us better. It is making a bad move to fix other bad moves and that is bad logic to begin with.

That isn't to say that, depending on matchups, injury, and even to show a different look at times, it isn't a good idea to play Deron at the 2 or AK at SF or play AJ and Sap together, but so far playing them there EVERY GAME hasn't worked very well.

What has occurred to me is that if you want about 50 wins and a first/second round playoff exit,playing Deron at PG and Raja 30 minutes will almost certainly get you that outcome in some fashion. Maybe.

Have you given the thought that Williams might be just as good a two guard as a point guard? I believe he is a better basketball player than a point guard. Your argument fails the logic test because a player can play out of position, be somewhat less than stellar in playing out of position and still be the best alternative for the team. The coaching staff clearly thinks that playing AK at the 3 over the last few years with Boozer being the better alternative. Likewise with Jefferson. An out of position Jefferson is much better than 48 minutes of Fess and Elson.

A few things should be crystal clear to the casual observer.

1. Any adjustment made should immediately address the Raja Bell debacle. Playing 4 of 5 at this point is an option.
2. The team is much more explosive, given its current make up with a high tempo, fast break, semi fast break, half court last resort progression. Despite the stereotype, this the way Jerry would like to play and is much closer to the Early, Stockton/Malone days:

AK is a legit, top tier 3 in the league playing this way
CJ is much more comfortable and effective
Milsap is much more effective using his speed and quickness over 94 feet.

ALL THREE ABOVE struggle in a stagnant half-court situation watching Williams trot the ball up the court. Millsap struggles with size when playing in the half-court. CJ gets stuck with the ball and forces bad shots. AK, well we know the story of him hanging out on the perimeter as an after thought.

Watson is a starting PG in the league, not super great, but he does two things very well..defend and push the ball up the court. He is a natural, born to be pg in the open court with excellent transition passing skills. Williams in the open court that doesn't result in his own shot is mediocre. Furthermore, he hates to do it. It is not in his nature. Watson is being horrifically under utilized.

Williams at the two is no different than Joe Dumars, Ainge, Hornacek, Andrew Toney, etc. There are tons of examples from history. He has all the skills as those players. Perhaps not quite the shooter, but with screens being set, shots in secondary transition, and with his ability to penetrate from the perimeter, finish, and/or drive and dish, he would be lethal as the primary half-court option. His shots and touches would not go down significantly if at all. Watson does not dominate the ball. He is a real pg. He pushes the ball, sets it up quickly if not in transition, and get the hell out of the way. He doesn't have to make every single play.


Up until the not always great evolution of the primary pg, the league and the game was dominated by two guard sets. This is not new.

 

[The Pearl]

The logic holds on the offensive end of the floor but not on the defensive end. That was not an issue during the Detroit ers of microwave, Dumars, and Isaiah because many teams were structured that way. Boston did the same things with DJ and Ainge.

In the current NBA, size matters. And I seriously doubt that it extends Deron's career to get abused and posted up continually by bigger longer 2's. BTW, Sloan has demonstrated he is willing to do this kind of thing based upon doing it with Deron and Fish. Ironically, he was was fried on this board for doing so.

This is a legit retort. The pistons did beat Clyde Drexler in the finals. It is not like Raja and CJ add any marginal defensive strengths.

 

[slc]

What about trading Deron for an elite SG and backup PG? Then start Watson and your new elite SG. Throw in Bell and more if need be. Can Jazz still win without Deron?

 

[LogGrad98]

Maybe playing Hayward ahead of Bell is better as Hayward is naturally a SG and Bell...well Bell sucks.

That isn't to say that, depending on matchups, injury, and even to show a different look at times, it isn't a good idea to play Deron at the 2 or AK at SF or play AJ and Sap together, but so far playing them there EVERY GAME hasn't worked very well.

What has occurred to me is that if you want about 50 wins and a first/second round playoff exit,playing Deron at PG and Raja 30 minutes will almost certainly get you that outcome in some fashion.

Did you notice I said Bell sucks. So your point is automatically moot, since you responded to a statement I never made...and your post was TLDR.

 

[franklin]

Your assumption is that Williams play making is going to drop significantly as a result of the move, this certainly not the case. There will be some drop off in terms of marginal involvement, but that drop off will mostly include the negative kind.

I fully endorse your message and have advocated it on here before. Williams is an excellent facilitator at the two, and it's quite possible his assist numbers wouldn't see a drop.

Jazz can't pass worth a damn outside 2 point guards and AK. 1990's Jazz teams could and would run the two man game outside of Stockton-Malone, something completely unthinkable these days. We need guys who can see the entire floor rather than clamming up like Ronnie Brewer worrying about having to actually put the rock on the floor.