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The Draft is a mirage!

The reason we've had limited success in the draft is our mediocre record over that period. Not many teams, picking where we have been picking, have had more success than Malone and Stockton. When I say picking up that missing piece, I'm referring to getting us to that place where we have all the pieces but an elite PG (for example) and pulling the trigger.

The hardest way for a small market team to win a championship is the way we've been doing it .. have a good enough record that we rarely, if ever, get a low lottery pick, yet not winning enough to lure the players needed to contend.
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Totally agree! All your points are valid IMHO. And that seems to me to point out that the draft is not the way to success for this Jazz team, but hopefully can bring us one more piece. If it could be that #1-2 then the chances of getting a game changer go up to 50-50 roughly. Wohoo. Failure it seems to me is seldom the way to prosperity.
 
We did keep Deron for almost 6 seasons. Considering the situation we did well. Malone and Stockton were drafted and that is the criteria here. Also Stockton was taken 16th overall, not second round.
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O.K. 16. So sue me for faulty memory. All i remember is the chorus of Who's when his name was announced.

Other than those three names that about sums up draft success for somewhere around 20-25 years
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You seem to be trying to refute the above statement but failed to make me see the error in my thinking. The point i was trying to make was that even our successes were not high lottery picks generally, 1-5. If we count on drafting some
future hero with a high lottery pick who will change our reality, the odds are really bad for us. You seem more focused on trying to prove me wrong than addressing our predicament. Don't like Grandpa's i'm guessing.
 
Grandpa Jazz said:
It has been my observation that a great many posters here are great believers in team building through the draft. We have many who spend a lot of time and effort tracking collegiate players and speculating that these
particular players would be great choices or not. This link (if anyone bothers to read it) is meant to be a cold dose of reality to those folks. You just don't build a championship level team by relying on draft picks and teams never really have succeeded who have tried this avenue. Certainly a team will occasionally draft (usually a #1 pick) someone who ends up being a mainstay on a championship team, but the team itself is always built on canny acquisitions of all possible avenues. Free agency signings, trades, foreign players who still are not scouted to the extent American players are. By hook or by crook you find the players you need but history shows that to try and build that TEAM via the draft is fools Gold. Think L.A. Clippers here, the penultimate team who tried dynasty through the draft and failed miserably. Now they have a (1) superstar caliber player they drafted and a team that was "assembled" to compliment him. You need some luck and some great personnel decisions and then a ton more luck. This link should make you think about the draft in a different way.

A poster who i respect, posted yesterday that he did not want the Jazz to "squeeze" into the playoffs in the #8 spot as that would herald many years of continued frustration, while not making the playoffs would give us a chance to compete well in a year or two. His point completely alludes me. How could the experience in the first year or two years of their careers of being under playoff conditions (however short) be a negative in their development? How could being a lottery team (oh, it could happen all right, if you get a miracle) make this team into gold? It could also happen if they are 8th in the conference as adverse to 9th.


https://82games.com/nbadraft2.html
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Sorry, but making the playoffs and being swept right out does not automatically make players better. Just reality check for you.
 
NCJazz said:
OKC Thunder
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Has not won a championship yet and maybe never will.

Did not have a championship contending team until they made trades. Mostly trading away their high draft pick green to the Celtics for a solid center.
 
Grandpa Jazz said:
O.K. 16. So sue me for faulty memory. All i remember is the chorus of Who's when his name was announced.



You seem to be trying to refute the above statement but failed to make me see the error in my thinking. The point i was trying to make was that even our successes were not high lottery picks generally, 1-5. If we count on drafting some
future hero with a high lottery pick who will change our reality, the odds are really bad for us. You seem more focused on trying to prove me wrong than addressing our predicament. Don't like Grandpa's i'm guessing.
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I'm not trying to change your mind there I was just listing facts. Think what you want but at least in these instances and others in this thread you've admitted draft picks can be valuable. And I think your line of reasoning regarding me and grandfathers may be a little flawed, but it's this sort of creative arguing that makes me respond to your posts.
 
Seriously, most of the best players in the league weren't drafted. And how in the hell did the Jazz get Stockton, Malone, and Deron? I think it was through trade... maybe free agency. Look through the HOF, most of those players just bounced around the league in their primes.

Get real, for the area/market the Jazz are in, free agency for big names is realistically not an option, and teams don't regularly just up and decide to trade their franchise players either.

The Jazz hardly have a chance with how the players culture in this league is at it is, the draft is easily the best shot the Jazz have. The same can't be said for the Knicks, LA teams, Chicago, Boston, Dallas, or Miami.

I'm not suggesting tanking or whatever straw man argument that will be likely thrown at my feet, but the idea that the Jazz are going to get anywhere through anything but building MOSTLY through the draft is inane. Whether that comes to fruition or not is another topic, but so far, the four young guys look about as good as the guys tying up more than half of the Jazz's cap and minutes at their position.
 
regarding me and grandfathers may be a little flawed, but it's this sort of creative arguing that makes me respond to your posts.
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Yeah probably pretty flawed, have gotten sensitive in my old age. Yeah ya did just list facts, but then so did i. Well except for the little Faux Paux about Stocks draft number. Got a great idea, i should check some things before clicking on "post quick reply". But then ya gotta leave the page and start all over. Certainly draft picks are valuable, very valuable, but i see them as only a cog in the building of the machine. My whole premise here was that a lot of people seem to think we only need to get that great #1,2,3 pick and our team is saved. I don't see that happening, ever. Even if we got it there is certainly no guarantee we don't pick someone who flops, as half have historically done.
 
Grandpa Jazz said:
Yeah probably pretty flawed, have gotten sensitive in my old age. Yeah ya did just list facts, but then so did i. Well except for the little Faux Paux about Stocks draft number. Got a great idea, i should check some things before clicking on "post quick reply". But then ya gotta leave the page and start all over. Certainly draft picks are valuable, very valuable, but i see them as only a cog in the building of the machine. My whole premise here was that a lot of people seem to think we only need to get that great #1,2,3 pick and our team is saved. I don't see that happening, ever. Even if we got it there is certainly no guarantee we don't pick someone who flops, as half have historically done.
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tabbed browsing...
 
The only way we become a contender is through the draft. We will never attract any superstar free agents, so we have to capitalize on our draft picks and hope we can convince them to stick around. I know Favors was aquired through trade, and hopefully he becomes a star like we are all hoping, but chances to aquire players of his potential through trade are usually slim. Kanter, Burks, and Hayward all could be solid starting caliber players in a couple of years. If we miss the playoffs and also get the GSW pick, we have a huge chance to aquire 2 more solid players through the draft, or 1 star caliber player if we package those picks + one of our young 4. IMO this is the blueprint we should follow. That's how the other successful small market teams (spurs, thunder) did it.
 
but the idea that the Jazz are going to get anywhere through anything but building MOSTLY through the draft is inane. Whether that comes to fruition or not is another topic, but so far, the four young guys look about as good as the guys tying up more than half of the Jazz's cap and minutes at their position.
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If the draft is truly our best shot, then we are truly screwed. The four young guys comment has my full agreement, with that, and four bucks we could share a cup of coffee. Ennui, that's what we are left with as fans. I think that's the proper word but again i would have to leave the page and start all over if i checked spelling and meaning. So like Devin Harris i'll just let it fly.
 
Grandpa Jazz said:
Yeah probably pretty flawed, have gotten sensitive in my old age. Yeah ya did just list facts, but then so did i. Well except for the little Faux Paux about Stocks draft number. Got a great idea, i should check some things before clicking on "post quick reply". But then ya gotta leave the page and start all over. Certainly draft picks are valuable, very valuable, but i see them as only a cog in the building of the machine. My whole premise here was that a lot of people seem to think we only need to get that great #1,2,3 pick and our team is saved. I don't see that happening, ever. Even if we got it there is certainly no guarantee we don't pick someone who flops, as half have historically done.
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Now we agree. First on the age thing as I am not far behind and my health makes the mileage as important as the age. With the Stockton pick it's not a big deal except that he was only drafted a few picks after Malone was really. I fully agree on few rookies having instant influence on games. Tim Duncan comes to mind when I think of that, but he was the exception not the rule. And picks can possibly not pan out, they can get injured or not have the mind for it (Luther Wright) etc but I maintain that here in Utah our best chance for getting quality starters is the draft or trading picks after creating a desirable place to play with draft picks.
 
I'm confused. Verlin you are much to smart to struggle with this. His Right to state his opinion and my right to state mine does not add up to a true concept or put another way, some conclusion that is right.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Seriously, most of the best players in the league weren't drafted. And how in the hell did the Jazz get Stockton, Malone, and Deron? I think it was through trade... maybe free agency. Look through the HOF, most of those players just bounced around the league in their primes.

Get real, for the area/market the Jazz are in, free agency for big names is realistically not an option, and teams don't regularly just up and decide to trade their franchise players either.

The Jazz hardly have a chance with how the players culture in this league is at it is, the draft is easily the best shot the Jazz have. The same can't be said for the Knicks, LA teams, Chicago, Boston, Dallas, or Miami.

I'm not suggesting tanking or whatever straw man argument that will be likely thrown at my feet, but the idea that the Jazz are going to get anywhere through anything but building MOSTLY through the draft is inane. Whether that comes to fruition or not is another topic, but so far, the four young guys look about as good as the guys tying up more than half of the Jazz's cap and minutes at their position.
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Thank you. Excellent. Will rep later.
 
Grandpa Jazz said:
If the draft is truly our best shot, then we are truly screwed. The four young guys comment has my full agreement, with that, and four bucks we could share a cup of coffee. Ennui, that's what we are left with as fans. I think that's the proper word but again i would have to leave the page and start all over if i checked spelling and meaning. So like Devin Harris i'll just let it fly.
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I think you're still missing it. You don't assemble your ENTIRE team through the draft, but we need to assemble enough to attract someone like a Steve Nash that wants to go to a team that has a chance to win it if they only had an elite PG. Assemble enough pieces through the draft, then hit the FA market for the last piece or last couple.
 
I think you're still missing it.
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No PKM i'm not missing it. I never said you draft an entire functioning team, rather that a great many posters seem to think that the draft is a panacea that cures all ills Come on, you draft two a year on average and if 1/2 of those turn into something you are fortunate. Yes as i have already stated repeatedly you need all resources and some good luck to build a great team. But if you think Steve Nash could be any part of a brighter future for the Jazz then i am stunned speechless
 
The draft is very important to any Jazz hopes of winning a title.

The Jazz 90s teams were built largely on draft picks.
 
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