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The Excuse for War


babe

Well-Known Member
In Western Civilization, people are often looking for good reasons to do bad stuff. The rest of the wold doesn't believe in reasons like that. They do bad stuff, with a smug notion that nobody can stop them, or that at least they will have their way for a day.

I've taken to reading Al Jazdeera as a first sourced lately. today I found this jopinion p;iece:


The problem I see with it is that the Western powers have themselves become corrupt to such an extent that any talk of having a superior sort of society that can justify "Just War" is pure nonsense.
 


Gameface

Stand With Ukraine
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
In Western Civilization, people are often looking for good reasons to do bad stuff. The rest of the wold doesn't believe in reasons like that. They do bad stuff, with a smug notion that nobody can stop them, or that at least they will have their way for a day.

I've taken to reading Al Jazdeera as a first sourced lately. today I found this jopinion p;iece:


The problem I see with it is that the Western powers have themselves become corrupt to such an extent that any talk of having a superior sort of society that can justify "Just War" is pure nonsense.
They have become corrupt? When did that happen exactly babe? When were they NOT corrupt?

What's your metric? What's your validation process?

But let's not get distracted from the main point. You said that "western powers" have become corrupt. That means that there was some glorious time when they were not corrupt. I'd like to know when that wonderful period began, when it ended and what essentially defines the pre corrupt era vs the current corrupt era.
 

babe

Well-Known Member
They have become corrupt? When did that happen exactly babe? When were they NOT corrupt?

What's your metric? What's your validation process?

But let's not get distracted from the main point. You said that "western powers" have become corrupt. That means that there was some glorious time when they were not corrupt. I'd like to know when that wonderful period began, when it ended and what essentially defines the pre corrupt era vs the current corrupt era.
We could discuss the subject more generally, but I tend to expect less of peoiple who are not at least professing Christians. The ethical standards I'd look for are in the Bible, in the Law of Moses or the teachings of Jesus. There was a time when some people like John Locke talked about how people should have rights. We fought a war agaiinst King George III, who I have heard rumored as my gg grandfather. He was considered a fool, but pliable, by merchant interests like the British Far East Trading comp;any, whjo got a concession to manage India and wanted to rule the Americas as well, with the same profit margins. Slaves, Rum, tobacco, Sugar, Lumber (Ships), Fish, oil, opium, cotton, silk and tea. British essentialsw, stuff that built the Industrial Revolution and floated British ships better than Spanish galleons.

Old Geoge did what business told him to do, sorta like Biden today.

When the British lost the war in the colonies, Old George III said George Washington was the greatest man alive.

That would be my prime example of what could be good in government or man.

Beyond that, I concede your point entirely.

A "Just War" would truly require the prospect of a better government than what has been. In my book, the rule for that is human liberty, human opportunity, human rights. Equal for all.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
They have become corrupt? When did that happen exactly babe? When were they NOT corrupt?

What's your metric? What's your validation process?

But let's not get distracted from the main point. You said that "western powers" have become corrupt. That means that there was some glorious time when they were not corrupt. I'd like to know when that wonderful period began, when it ended and what essentially defines the pre corrupt era vs the current corrupt era.
It’s still amazing to me that babe is trying to excuse Putin’s senseless slaughtering of thousands of people, both Ukrainian and Russian. While simultaneously blaming “the west.” He’s just not a good person. Sorry. This isn’t a difference of political opinion. @babe you're just a small pathetic ****** human being.

I was reading a piece the other day about a mother and her 3 month old daughter being killed. They’d be alive today if Putin hadn’t invaded. Such a senseless war. All instigated by a small pathetic cockroach. I hope Ukraine with the west’s support beats back these forces of evil and establish a prosperous and free Ukraine. A Ukraine that values democracy and human values. We all know Russia sure doesn’t value these things.
 

babe

Well-Known Member
It’s still amazing to me that babe is trying to excuse Putin’s senseless slaughtering of thousands of people, both Ukrainian and Russian. While simultaneously blaming “the west.” He’s just not a good person. Sorry. This isn’t a difference of political opinion. @babe you're just a small pathetic ****** human being.

I was reading a piece the other day about a mother and her 3 month old daughter being killed. They’d be alive today if Putin hadn’t invaded. Such a senseless war. All instigated by a small pathetic ****roach. I hope Ukraine with the west’s support beats back these forces of evil and establish a prosperous and free Ukraine. A Ukraine that values democracy and human values. We all know Russia sure doesn’t value these things.
You're just not a good example of anything. You can't resist inexcusable rhetoric like personal attacks and vilifying anyone you disagree with. I suppose it goes with the territory when someone becomes an unthinking political activist.

Zelensky is corrupt, controlled by his oligarchic political supporters, which are known to be pro-Western. Many US interests are in the bag for him, not because of "democracy" or anything oh so noble, but for economic advantage they seek, the opportunity to exploit Ukranian people and even Russian people for cartel interests and power.

Our "Western" elites who are pushing this war with Russia are not true advocates for democracy. Political freedom is under attack here, people who disagree are being set up in sting operations, then arrested and denied due process in our courts. Our media is as bad as Pravda ever was, and as bad or worse than Russian media.

Personal attacks on a person's character, like the slurs you use, are the first step to creating an American Gulag or prison camp. I hope you don't think that would be a good thing.
 

Avery

Well-Known Member
As long as man has walked the earth, they’ve always craved power. Hasn’t changed from the time of cavemen to the Egyptians to the Romans to the crusades to now.

Good reasons to do bad stuff didn’t start with the west and it won’t end with the west. It will reign until a comet, a climate or some other force decides to end it for us.
 

babe

Well-Known Member
As long as man has walked the earth, they’ve always craved power. Hasn’t changed from the time of cavemen to the Egyptians to the Romans to the crusades to now.

Good reasons to do bad stuff didn’t start with the west and it won’t end with the west. It will reign until a comet, a climate or some other force decides to end it for us.

The fundamental claim of the UN, of "Progress" is that we can do better.

But our current crop of Western, say UK/US visionaries not only is destroying the gains from the Magna Carta and US Constitution but basic human liberties we fought for and must fight for again if we can't politically secure them, and take on the enemies of human liberty, and get them voted down and out of power.

Putin called them thugs, thieves because they broke their promises to Russia over decades of negotiations. He has nowhere to run.

So because we were the movers and shakers he objects to....... well, our elites and our NAZI footsoldiers.......he began pushing back. We can't seriously claim to be on higher moral ground when we lock up election protestors, silence discussion on media sites, and indulge in super hyped warmongering rabble rousing to support a sick, weak little man who should have chosen to negotiate rather than do his war dance.

We picked him, we set him up. He restricted political rights to half of the Ukranian population, jailed their political leaders and cruelly tortured ethnic Russians who didn't support him. Azov battalion soldiers disfiguring captured separatists, the most cruel and unnecessary war crimes in this century, then they set up fake photo shots with British camera crews to blame Russia for the same damn stuff. War is Hell, sure, and Truth the first casualty. Nobody should just believe what they're "told" during a war. We really don't have "facts" we can trust. Claims by all sides have to be examined critically. Stories of war crimes by Ukranian soldiers and govenment against ethnic Russians were pushed out in 2014. It's a fact that Russian ethnic people were marginalized in elections. Some were excluded from running for office,some were excluded from voting, many were harassed and intimidated. Over a million left for Russia. To join the separatists endangered your family and friends. A lot of people fled to the separatist areas.

Our media doesn't tell us about it. I have to go the world over to find the pics and details. I do wonder if there is not enough damnation for both sides to be fried in Hell, but we can't get past this without deciding we can do better, and that we must.

If the UN wants credibility it has to break the UK/US control/agenda and become capable of making a peace that can stand.

Failing of that, sources have told me privately that Jesus is coming. That won't change human nature, but it will set up a new world order that has better principles.
 
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Avery

Well-Known Member
The fundamental claim of the UN, of "Progress" is that we can do better.

But our current crop of Western, say UK/US visionaries not only is destroying the gains from the Magna Carta and US Constitution but basic human liberties we fought for and must fight for again if we can't politically secure them, and take on the enemies of human liberty, and get them voted down and out of power.

Putin called them thugs, thieves because they broke their promises to Russia over decades of negotiations. He has nowhere to run.

So because we were the movers and shakers he objects to....... well, our elites and our NAZI footsoldiers.......he began pushing back. We can't seriously claim to be on higher moral ground when we lock up election protestors, silence discussion on media sites, and indulge in super hyped warmongering rabble rousing to support a sick, weak little man who should have chosen to negotiate rather than do his war dance.

We picked him, we set him up. He restricted political rights to half of the Ukranian population, jailed their political leaders and cruelly tortured ethnic Russians who didn't support him. Azov battalion soldiers disfiguring captured separatists, the most cruel and unnecessary war crimes in this century, then they set up fake photo shots with British camera crews to blame Russia for the same damn stuff.

Our media doesn't tell us about it. I have to go the world over to find the pics and details. I do wonder if there is not enough damnation for both sides to be fried in Hell, but we can't get past this without deciding we can do better, and that we must.

If the UN wants credibility it has to break the UK/US control/agenda and become capable of making a peace that can stand.

Failing of that, sources have told me privately that Jesus is coming. That won't change human nature, but it will set up a new world order that has better principles.

My short take on this is every government on earth, shadow government, special interest, etc. wants to be in control and it simply comes down to a matter of you agree with them or not. Anyone that you do is the right and only choice, any that you don’t is the aggressor.

Human nature can’t be changed. We are what we are and man will eventually be the fall of man.
 
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babe

Well-Known Member
My short take on this is every government on earth, shadow government, special internet, etc. wants to be in control and it simply comes down to a matter of you agree with them or not. Anyone that you do is the right and only choice, any that you don’t is the aggressor.

Human nature can’t be changed. We are what we are and man will eventually be the fall of man.
My short take on this is that of course you are right so far as you go with it, but we have to try.

"A man's reach must exceed his grasp"

Overcoming realistic appraisals and still trying to make things better is our ultimate destiny
 


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