Tipping Point

[Handlogten's Heros]

Lots of frustration this season and I feel the Jazz are at a tipping point... We needed to make progress and injuries really hurt our ability to see if there was any progress. The key issue/deadline is Hayward's impending free agency. Screwing up his free agency has forced us to now make decisions when we don't have complete information.

Option A

Bakkk Cakkes. Roll forward with this core believing that Rudy and Favors can anchor one of the leagues best defenses and provide enough spacing to allow us to score enough. I think Exum's defensive impact last year was understated and maybe with him healthy we return to the defensive juggernaut we think we can. We'd be banking on Exum developing, Lyles developing, hitting on our 1st round picks, and Hayward staying (and the millers being willing to pay him buckoo bucks... I think he's worth it personally)

Option B

The minor shakeup... adding a Cory Joseph level of free agent to go along with our cakk bakking. Moving on from dudes like Chris Johnson, Neto, Ingles, Mack. We'd be banking on improved health and that this kind of move would move the needle. Also, that a desired free agent would actually pick us.

Option C

The big shakeup... I can't believe I am becoming this guy... What if one of Favs, Gobert has to be moved to make this thing work. It's not an ideal pairing obviously... either one would bring in a haul. You could add in possibly trading Hayward, but he is our least replaceable player and I think it would be a monster step back. The issue is neither Favs or Gobert can punish the defense for going small regularly. If we keep Favors are we nearly as good defensively? If we pick Gobert do we still have the same spacing issues? I love both guys but I have no better idea today if this thing can work.

Basically I think too much patience may have effed up this rebuild... combined with a couple mistakes and a few strokes of terrible luck. There are some great individual pieces but I'm looking at the end result and thinking they don't fit. I don't think our management has the balls to do what it takes to make it work... I'm sad.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Lots of frustration this season and I feel the Jazz are at a tipping point... We needed to make progress and injuries really hurt our ability to see if there was any progress. The key issue/deadline is Hayward's impending free agency. Screwing up his free agency has forced us to now make decisions when we don't have complete information.

Option A

Bakkk Cakkes.

Option B

The minor shakeup...
Option C

The big shakeup... I can't believe I am becoming this guy... What if one of Favs, Gobert has to be moved to make this thing work. It's not an ideal pairing obviously... either one would bring in a haul. You could add in possibly trading Hayward, but he is our least replaceable player and I think it would be a monster step back. The issue is neither Favs or Gobert can punish the defense for going small regularly. If we keep Favors are we nearly as good defensively? If we pick Gobert do we still have the same spacing issues? I love both guys but I have no better idea today if this thing can work.

Basically I think too much patience may have effed up this rebuild... combined with a couple mistakes and a few strokes of terrible luck. There are some great individual pieces but I'm looking at the end result and thinking they don't fit. I don't think our management has the balls to do what it takes to make it work... I'm sad.

DL has always been planning for Option B, but he doesn't realize even minor FA's will be getting MAJOR overpays with the new cap. He'll do what he has done the last couple of summers: decide no one is worth the money it would require to sign them, then spew his nonsense about liking our young players, internal development, and getting the injured players back as being the major "acquisitions."

I disagree about Hayward. He should be the first out the door in a trade. There is ZERO guarantee he even will WANT to return. And giving him a contract starting at $30M with 7.5% increases would be stupid. He's not a star. He's not a #1 option. He can't take over games. He's a fringe all-star; that's it.

And yes, we CAN utilize Favors and Gobert together (if Rudy pulls his head out of his ***), but it requires surrounding them with 3PT shooters. We have one of those in Hood. But Hayward is not a great threat and neither are our PG's. That's another reason I'd support trading Gordon. Hood can run the offense (and he's better at it than Hayward any way). Optimally, put a 3PT shooting PG up top and a 3PT shooting SF in the corner. Hood runs the P&R and either hits Favors, takes a pull up or throws it out to the corner or back out top for a 3.

 

[Miggs]

I'm down for Option A.

For it to be successful, the following needs to happen.

1) Gobert needs to get fully healthy (if he gained weight this past off-season, lose it) and develop some offense. A little bit perhaps. By next season's end, if he could be a 12.5-13.0 point per game scorer and be unstoppable on defense, I think that's good progress.

2)Exum, Exum, Exum. This kid needs to be the real deal on both ends of the court. Next year, he needs to be above average on defense and show me he can score 10.0 points per game, dish 4.0 assists and shoot 35% from three. Again, that's good progress when considering he's coming off a major injury.

3) Hayward, Hood, Exum and Burks (if he's here) need to improve their perimeter game. What once was considered respectable at 37% from outside is now just basically average. We need these two or three of these guys to be 39%+ three-point shooters. Lyles is and he's a rookie. Right now, Hayward is 35.7%, Hood is 36.1%, and Exum and Burks aren't any better from what we've seen. This isn't tolerable.

4) Favors needs more than 13.5 shots per game.

5) We need to add a fiery player who also contributes on the court. This can be through the draft or free agency. I'm tired of having a bunch of ******* on our team.

6) We need to add at least one more legit bench player; if Burke or Burks are jettisoned, they need to be replaced with legit talent too.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

DL has always been planning for Option B, but he doesn't realize even minor FA's will be getting MAJOR overpays with the new cap. He'll do what he has done the last couple of summers: decide no one is worth the money it would require to sign them, then spew his nonsense about liking our young players, internal development, and getting the injured players back as being the major "acquisitions."

I disagree about Hayward. He should be the first out the door in a trade. There is ZERO guarantee he even will WANT to return. And giving him a contract starting at $30M with 7.5% increases would be stupid. He's not a star. He's not a #1 option. He can't take over games. He's a fringe all-star; that's it.

And yes, we CAN utilize Favors and Gobert together (if Rudy pulls his head out of his ***), but it requires surrounding them with 3PT shooters. We have one of those in Hood. But Hayward is not a great threat and neither are our PG's. That's another reason I'd support trading Gordon. Hood can run the offense (and he's better at it than Hayward any way). Optimally, put a 3PT shooting PG up top and a 3PT shooting SF in the corner. Hood runs the P&R and either hits Favors, takes a pull up or throws it out to the corner or back out top for a 3.

I think Hayward is currently our best player at a position that is scarce right now. He's not a number one option in a sense that he can or should use as many possessions as the harden, Westbrook, Durant types. If we moved Rudy or favs the other guy replaces some of what they bring to the table. Don't think we can dismiss guys who aren't number one options... Aren't many in the league.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm down for Option A.

For it to be successful, the following needs to happen.

1) Gobert needs to get fully healthy (if he gained weight this past off-season, lose it) and develop some offense. A little bit perhaps. By next season's end, if he could be a 12.5-13.0 point per game scorer and be unstoppable on defense, I think that's good progress.

2)Exum, Exum, Exum. This kid needs to be the real deal on both ends of the court. Next year, he needs to be above average on defense and show me he can score 10.0 points per game, dish 4.0 assists and shoot 35% from three. Again, that's good progress when considering he's coming off a major injury.

3) Hayward, Hood, Exum and Burks (if he's here) need to improve their perimeter game. What once was considered respectable at 37% from outside is now just basically average. We need these two or three of these guys to be 39%+ three-point shooters. Lyles is and he's a rookie. Right now, Hayward is 35.7%, Hood is 36.1%, and Exum and Burks aren't any better from what we've seen. This isn't tolerable.

4) Favors needs more than 13.5 shots per game.

5) We need to add a fiery player who also contributes on the court. This can be through the draft or free agency. I'm tired of having a bunch of ******* on our team.

6) We need to add at least one more legit bench player; if Burke or Burks are jettisoned, they need to be replaced with legit talent too.

Number 5 would be nice... Ingles has some of this but he's been so bad. Like a prime raja bell or Matt Barnes (but not the actual Matt Barnes I hate that guy)

 

[kabenac]

We've got to do B, regardless. We need to upgrade our bench. Lyles is here to stay, of course. If we can get Booker to resign for cheap enough that's cool and if not we can sign somebody else or draft someone.

Ingles and Johnson need upgraded, no doubt. That has to happen. Burke is as good as gone. We need to get SOMETHING out of him. Of course, now that he sits the bench his value is not high.

Withey is cool and should stay. He's the last man on the bench despite playing well.

I think Mack's here because Snyder loves him. But Exum/Mack/Neto isn't good enough. We need a better backup for Exum.

As I've said in other threads I think we're going to draft either a SG or SF this season. I think whomever we draft is going to either start (at SG) or backup Hood or Hayward meaning bye-bye to Ingles.

Johnson's replacement can come easily through a free agent-signing or a 2nd round pick.

Doing everything mentioned (which should happen and there's no excuse) and getting Burks and Exum back will make us better, no doubt. But we need more. We need a star. Getting a Durant would be great but is not likely.

As far as second-tier stars go there aren't many leaders out there. It would be nice to sign a Batum or Harrison Barnes but they're not #1 scoring options. They merely add depth.

Guys like Eric Gordon are expensive and don't make us better in the long run.

If we want to trade for a legit #1 scoring option we're going to need to trade talent and perhaps draft picks. We need to do it though. We need a #1 scoring option. It will be tough to win a Championship without a scoring star unless DL does a masterful job of creating a team similar to the Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Prince/Hamilton Pistons - AKA a defensively gifted team who can score off turnovers and play efficiently.

 

[Miggs]

We've got to do B, regardless. We need to upgrade our bench. Lyles is here to stay, of course. If we can get Booker to resign for cheap enough that's cool and if not we can sign somebody else or draft someone.

Ingles and Johnson need upgraded, no doubt. That has to happen. Burke is as good as gone. We need to get SOMETHING out of him. Of course, now that he sits the bench his value is not high.

Withey is cool and should stay. He's the last man on the bench despite playing well.

I think Mack's here because Snyder loves him. But Exum/Mack/Neto isn't good enough. We need a better backup for Exum.

As I've said in other threads I think we're going to draft either a SG or SF this season. I think whomever we draft is going to either start (at SG) or backup Hood or Hayward meaning bye-bye to Ingles.

Johnson's replacement can come easily through a free agent-signing or a 2nd round pick.

Doing everything mentioned (which should happen and there's no excuse) and getting Burks and Exum back will make us better, no doubt. But we need more. We need a star. Getting a Durant would be great but is not likely.

As far as second-tier stars go there aren't many leaders out there. It would be nice to sign a Batum or Harrison Barnes but they're not #1 scoring options. They merely add depth.

Guys like Eric Gordon are expensive and don't make us better in the long run.

If we want to trade for a legit #1 scoring option we're going to need to trade talent and perhaps draft picks. We need to do it though. We need a #1 scoring option. It will be tough to win a Championship without a scoring star unless DL does a masterful job of creating a team similar to the Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Prince/Hamilton Pistons - AKA a defensively gifted team who can score off turnovers and play efficiently.

I can't disagree. The only guy we'd maybe have a shot at is Paul George. I'd trade Gobert, Hood and pick)s) for him. Or Favors/Burks and picks. Something like that. A George/Hayward duo would be sweet.

 

[kabenac]

I can't disagree. The only guy we'd maybe have a shot at is Paul George. I'd trade Gobert, Hood and pick)s) for him. Or Favors/Burks and picks. Something like that. A George/Hayward duo would be sweet.

I would do Favors/Burks and picks. Gobert's defense is just way too valuable and rare to lose. And I believe Lyles can stretch the floor at PF - he isn't the defender Favors is but having George as a legit scorer is well worth the trade. We would be so much better having George and I think everyone else would play better by us having George. It would be a dream.

 

[jope]

I can't disagree. The only guy we'd maybe have a shot at is Paul George. I'd trade Gobert, Hood and pick)s) for him. Or Favors/Burks and picks. Something like that. A George/Hayward duo would be sweet.

Is George rumored to be available or something?

 

[Utesnjazz]

DL has always been planning for Option B, but he doesn't realize even minor FA's will be getting MAJOR overpays with the new cap. He'll do what he has done the last couple of summers: decide no one is worth the money it would require to sign them, then spew his nonsense about liking our young players, internal development, and getting the injured players back as being the major "acquisitions."

I disagree about Hayward. He should be the first out the door in a trade. There is ZERO guarantee he even will WANT to return. And giving him a contract starting at $30M with 7.5% increases would be stupid. He's not a star. He's not a #1 option. He can't take over games. He's a fringe all-star; that's it.

And yes, we CAN utilize Favors and Gobert together (if Rudy pulls his head out of his ***), but it requires surrounding them with 3PT shooters. We have one of those in Hood. But Hayward is not a great threat and neither are our PG's. That's another reason I'd support trading Gordon. Hood can run the offense (and he's better at it than Hayward any way). Optimally, put a 3PT shooting PG up top and a 3PT shooting SF in the corner. Hood runs the P&R and either hits Favors, takes a pull up or throws it out to the corner or back out top for a 3.

Great post couldn't agree more