Trade deadline discussion

[jom2003]

Legitimately interested in what you think a realistic scenario for getting Yuta would be. I have a hard time imagining one beyond what we're clearly not willing to do.

remember matt thomas. one second round draft pick, duh. he's only on a one year deal with Raptors. Either lose him for nothing next summer or get something for him now. He's not gonna see minutes anyways with Siakam, OG and Barnes.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Over the years, Q has talked a lot about “force” and “juice”..... well, I ****ing guarantee that Trent has lots more of both than we’ve been seeing.

The big question for me is why we can’t find the type of player we need and/or why that type of player can’t break out in our system.

It could be a big part of the issue... its why you almost have to have a fully established vet come in and do it... because force leads to **** ups sometimes... and young players aren't allowed to do that here. For example... if JC was some other no name young player you think Quin sees his talent and goes full ride or die with him?

Outside of Donovan, which was its own movement entirely, which young players have been empowered to grow during our playoff contention years. Joe and Royce early were really part of a different set of circumstances. Some of these players have become good solid players.... Allen, Burks, Neto (who was good here too)... Its likely a talent and environment thing but part of me wonders if Bane would be our third string 2 guard if we had drafted him.

There is a chance that Butler isn't good... there is also a chance he's the mother effer that wrecked college basketball's finest in the NCAA tournament. I've kind of hated the narrative around Jared since the pre-season. All the media guys saying "slow down... I know he just led all rookies in pre-season scoring but he has to learn to play with others..." Then he got some time and it wasn't great (like he was going to be a world beater in 3 minute stints in his first NBA action)... but it also wasn't horrible... there were some good things there. But because we can't stand any growing pains at all we shifted.

I think maybe we squeeze the juice out of guys and replace it with processors or some ****.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

remember matt thomas. one second round draft pick, duh. he's only on a one year deal with Raptors. Either lose him for nothing next summer or get something for him now. He's not gonna see minutes anyways with Siakam, OG and Barnes.

I think the difference is Yuta is good at basketball and Cold Matthew is effing terrible. Just because they may not play him 20 minutes a night once those guys are healthy (OG may be out long term if they decide to tank) doesn't mean they won't have better offers. I also think Siakham could get moved.

I think Yuta would fetch either one good second (like if you had OKC's 2nd) or two solid seconds... or they will just keep his bird rights and retain him (maybe for somewhat cheap). I think he has proved to be a unique and useful NBA wing.

 

[jom2003]

It could be a big part of the issue... its why you almost have to have a fully established vet come in and do it... because force leads to **** ups sometimes... and young players aren't allowed to do that here. For example... if JC was some other no name young player you think Quin sees his talent and goes full ride or die with him?

Outside of Donovan, which was its own movement entirely, which young players have been empowered to grow during our playoff contention years. Joe and Royce early were really part of a different set of circumstances. Some of these players have become good solid players.... Allen, Burks, Neto (who was good here too)... Its likely a talent and environment thing but part of me wonders if Bane would be our third string 2 guard if we had drafted him.

There is a chance that Butler isn't good... there is also a chance he's the mother effer that wrecked college basketball's finest in the NCAA tournament. I've kind of hated the narrative around Jared since the pre-season. All the media guys saying "slow down... I know he just led all rookies in pre-season scoring but he has to learn to play with others..." Then he got some time and it wasn't great (like he was going to be a world beater in 3 minute stints in his first NBA action)... but it also wasn't horrible... there were some good things there. But because we can't stand any growing pains at all we shifted.

I think maybe we squeeze the juice out of guys and replace it with processors or some ****.

I'd argue all Allen, AB and Neto were pretty good when they were here. Allen's career high is still 40 which he scored in his rookie year. Of course he didn't play as many games as he wanted but he was just a rookie. That was also a year where we acquired Korver midseason so we had to play him and thus pushed Allen out of the rotation entirely.
AB and Neto were dealing with injuries mostly when they were here, which is why I have to raise some questions in regards to our medical staff. AB was actually averaging a career high 33mpg and playing some of his best basketball in 2014/15 season under Quin through 27 games before he went out of commission with a season ending injury. So can't really fault Quin too much for that

 

[jom2003]

I think the difference is Yuta is good at basketball and Cold Matthew is effing terrible. Just because they may not play him 20 minutes a night once those guys are healthy (OG may be out long term if they decide to tank) doesn't mean they won't have better offers. I also think Siakham could get moved.

I think Yuta would fetch either one good second (like if you had OKC's 2nd) or two solid seconds... or they will just keep his bird rights and retain him (maybe for somewhat cheap). I think he has proved to be a unique and useful NBA wing.

One second should do. Remember we actually overpaid to get Thomas, who isn't really worth a pick. But I agree that we should take advantage of the situation and offer them a memphis second.

 

[Hekate]

I can look at stats now... because even if they get boosted AF they are still ummmm maybe averagish.

He's good defensively... and it isn't all that matters... the offense matters a whole lot. Remember that talented but reluctant shooter in Philly? One guy sucking in an offense is just as onerous as having a defensive sieve on the court.

Or he becomes our Terrance Mann.

I didn't say that defense is all that matters.

Neither Butler or Forrest are making max money and has to play a lot. They are not integral to the system as Simmons was. You may not be able to work it out with an unwilling shooter playing 30-35 minutes but all Forrest is going to play is limited minutes and scoring may become harder but Mitchell, Clarkson, Conley can carry the load if it's not the whole game.

In the scenario that we need defense for a few minutes Forrest is more likely and better suited to provide it. Quin may be giving him minutes to develop his offensive feel so he isn't as much of a burden offensively while helping us on defense.

If in the preseason we traded, Clarkson or Ingles or both for a defensive player that could be a part of the rotation, I am pretty sure Quin would play Butler as we would need more offense and playmaking.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Or he becomes our Terrance Mann.

I didn't say that defense is all that matters.

Neither Butler or Forrest are making max money and has to play a lot. They are not integral to the system as Simmons was. You may not be able to work it out with an unwilling shooter playing 30-35 minutes but all Forrest is going to play is limited minutes and scoring may become harder but Mitchell, Clarkson, Conley can carry the load if it's not the whole game.

In the scenario that we need defense for a few minutes Forrest is more likely and better suited to provide it. Quin may be giving him minutes to develop his offensive feel so he isn't as much of a burden offensively while helping us on defense.

If in the preseason we traded, Clarkson or Ingles or both for a defensive player that could be a part of the rotation, I am pretty sure Quin would play Butler as we would need more offense and playmaking.

I misread part of your post... so my bad.

Fact is saying you can't look at stats now cuz he gonna get boosted is ahhhh not logical. Is he gonna get boosted to something he isn't at all... cuz if that is the case wait until we boost JB to Marcus Smart on defense.

He's not Terance Mann... he's just not...

I used Ben Simmons to show that even if you are super talented on defense... you can be neutered in the playoffs if you can't and won't shoot... if that is for 5 minutes or 36 minutes it doesn't mean it isn't a problem.

Quin is playing him because of the bench players available he is the most familiar and provides the highest floor for an individual performance. On a night-to-night basis it might be a strategy that improves your chances of winning a bit. But it takes chances away from other dudes to get meaningful time. The payoff down the road is much bigger.

If you need a guy for a few minutes defensively in the playoffs, then Forrest can be that... I don't need to see him for 5-20 minutes a game the rest of the season to see that... I also don't need that time to see that he won't improve on his fatal flaw. His offense this year is worse than last.... His offense in the first 20 games was better than the last 10 games... give it another 15-20 games and i am not sure you are gonna get a "boost".

Rookies take some time to develop... invest what little time you have in a project with some upside... it doesn't have to pay off this season... hell the payoff might be that you have a solid trade asset either at the deadline or in the offseason. Hell the payoff may be that you figure out JB sucks and you don't keep him around. I'm good on the Trent Forrest time... he's a solid backup for injury insurance.

 

[idiot]

remember matt thomas. one second round draft pick, duh. he's only on a one year deal with Raptors. Either lose him for nothing next summer or get something for him now. He's not gonna see minutes anyways with Siakam, OG and Barnes.

Sorry, I don't consider this realistic, though I wish it was. They'll just keep him if that's our offer. They like him too much. They aren't looking to offload him like they were with Thomas.

 

[NAOS]

Sorry, I don't consider this realistic, though I wish it was. They'll just keep him if that's our offer. They like him too much. They aren't looking to offload him like they were with Thomas.

jom gotta jom, though. Check back in a few months when, with a straight face, he accuses the FO of not making this obvious and realistic trade for Yuta.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I'm on board with switching the Forrest and Butler development plans for awhile. I'm anxious for Butler to get some more time in the regular rotation and think Forrest could benefit with some more time running the show in the g league (once they start playing again) and getting more attention from the development coaches.

I guess it's possible that the team wants to give Forrest as much of a look as possible before deciding on giving him a real contract. For me, I would have already gotten that done already.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm on board with switching the Forrest and Butler development plans for awhile. I'm anxious for Butler to get some more time in the regular rotation and think Forrest could benefit with some more time running the show in the g league (once they start playing again) and getting more attention from the development coaches.

I guess it's possible that the team wants to give Forrest as much of a look as possible before deciding on giving him a real contract. For me, I would have already gotten that done already.

It makes sense to wait because of injury but it’s clear they have picked Trent over Miye and I think Miye has a January fully guaranteed date… so I think he may need to call Baileys.

 

[jom2003]

Sorry, I don't consider this realistic, though I wish it was. They'll just keep him if that's our offer. They like him too much. They aren't looking to offload him like they were with Thomas.

Its obvious Toronto likes him and the Japanese market behind him but I still don't see a scenario where he'd get consistent minutes with OG, Barnes and Siakam being healthy. They will have a tough decision to make comes next summer.