Was Fes' Play Last Night An Aberration?

[Ben10]

ISG, Regardless of all your arguments (some of which are valid, some of which are completely your opinion) Fes did not earn time on the floor. Period. Any coach on any level well play a guy that has proven that he wants to play, practice, improve and is motevated over a player that might Potentially be a better player but doesn't put for the effort to be so.

And until this year both his coaches, and teammates have stated that Fes does not put forth the effort. See quotes from D-Will this year that say he is finally acting and performing like the professional that well earn him time. This from a teammate not Sloan. I am really excited to see Fes develop this year. And I think he well because he has finally decided to be serious about it. All of his lack of time before is on him for not being the professional/attitude that he needed to be. Because it is proven that Sloan has no problem playing that type of player.

 

[Hopper]

ISG, Regardless of all your arguments (some of which are valid, some of which are completely your opinion) Fes did not earn time on the floor. Period.

Ben, as much as I agree with you, I think you're missin S2's basic argument, which seems to be this; No one has to EARN anything. That whole concept of "earning" sumthin seems totally foreign to S2. For you to even suggest that Fess would need to do anything to "earn" playin time just proves that you are as stupid as Sloan. It is Sloan's obligation to GIVE Fess playin time, which will, of course, magically make him better regardless of his effort or motivation.

No one is worthy of NBA playin time when they come to the NBA because they have not yet played in any NBA games, which is the only way to become NBA worthy, caincha see? You could practice with an NBA team for 10 years and you would completely suck until you got your first minute on the NBA floor, at which time, look out! Superstardom, here we come.

 

[Hopper]

Fess spent the better part of one year in the D-league didn't he? To my recollection he did nothing to really stand out while there. Not near as much as Jazz players like Roger Powell and Morris Almond (both of whom were NBDL all-stars and perhaps even MVP's) who were both unceremoniously cut by the Jazz later without ever playin much.

Other lower or undrafted guys--most recently guys like Maynard, Millsap, and Wes Matthews--played well at the pro level from the git-go, and Sloan gave them a lot of playin time, relatively speaking, in their first year. Sloan scoffs at the idea that "he" develops players. He repeatedly points out that it is the players themselves, not him, who do the work to improve themselves, assuming they do improve. Everyone does seem to agree that improvement requires effort, however. Other than S2, I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that the mere act of bein on an NBA floor during an actual game, in itself, makes a player better.

 

[go4jazz]

Not sure why I even bother.

Fess spent the better part of one year in the D-league didn't he? To my recollection he did nothing to really stand out while there. Not near as much as Jazz players like Roger Powell and Morris Almond (both of whom were NBDL all-stars and perhaps even MVP's) who were both unceremoniously cut by the Jazz later without ever playin much.

Next, other lower or undrafted guys--most recently guys like Maynard, Millsap, and Wes Matthews--played well at the pro level from the git-go, and Sloan gave them a lot of playin time, relatively speaking, in their first year. Sloan scoffs at the idea that "he" develops players. He repeatedly points out that it is the players themselves, not him, who do the work to improve themselves, assuming they do improve. Everyone does seem to agree that improvement requires effort, however. Other than S2, I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that the mere act of bein on an NBA floor during an actual game, in itself, makes a player better.

"Named to D-League All-Star Team for 2007-08 season" The 08-09 season he barely had opportunity to distinguish himself because he played so few games, but seriously using the D-league to justify your arguments is pretty lame.

Maynard, Millsap, and Wes Matthews = Maynor, Millsap and Matthews. Millsap didn't get significant playing time until a couple of years into his contract. Maynor and Matthews both ONLY got playing time because of injuries to Miles and D-Will. If not for that, no amount of hard work would have allowed them the opportunities they were afforded. Sloan's hand was forced. Much in the same way that Fes finally saw some significant playing time. Look I can tell you that last year Fes was typically #1 or #2 to practice every day and #1 or #2 to shoot around as well. He was also one of the last to leave practice every day because he had extra workout time after regular practice with either Horny or Harpring. Yeah, you don't hear about all this because it is boring crap but is relevant.

Let me say this for the record. I am thrilled that Fes started here in Utah. He and I are great friends and I've watched his progress from his first year until now and can say it has been a long steady upward trend. I am thrilled that Fes played for Sloan and for the Utah Jazz organization. He knows that it was the best thing for him as well. Had he gone to a party Miami team or somewhere else less disciplined he probably wouldn't be in the league. Do you hear what I am saying. Probably not because I've said the exact same thing before. I give credit to Sloan for much of his progress. I give credit to Sloan. Here...one more time...Sloan has helped in his development and his current position.

That said. You didn't watch a man bust hump, see success, be praised by his coach, hear the coach say things like "we are going to have to find him more minutes" only to see him benched for the next 10 games. Yeah, I know, I know making NBA money is supposed to make you immune from emotions and the desire to prove yourself on the world stage. Just shut up, grin and bear it and count your blessings that the pine you happen to be riding is some of the most expensive pine that people around the world wish they could occupy. I know the arguments and I saw the practical side of watching excitement gained from lots of extra effort and some good games slowly sucked out of him because the lip service paid to his progress was just that.

Finally, quit throwing crap out about that which you know nothing about. He was not kicked off a national team because of smoking, he left after a dispute with the coach (or a family matter if you believe his agent). Whatever the reason he left, who cares? You guys keep throwing summer camp out there as it were some amazing career building block. He gets far more practice and playing time with his national team over the course of 2 months than the 10 days of summer camp. Do you think it was coincidence he came back even lighter than he left? Dime magazine? really? For every backwater crap publication you can find just as many quotes from Sloan, D-Will or Carmelo that backup what IGS and I have been trying to say.

Whether you think or Sloan thought that he deserved playing time is all in the eye of the beholder. I'm just saying that you can't be terribly surprised that after building someone up after seeing steady consistent effort only to drop them on their head thereafter isn't terribly productive.

As I have said previously as well. Again, just for the record. Sloan has been much better with Fes this year. Was it because Fes showed up at 285 this year? Perhaps. Was it because he had a decent showing in the playoffs? Perhaps. Is it because he is in his 4th year and no longer a rook in Jerry's eyes. Maybe. All I know is I see a huge difference in his confidence and his desire to improve. It also doesn't suck that he now has Al and Elson battling him for a spot where only Memo and Kosta existed previously. Fes knows he has a long way to go. He doesn't pretend he is all that or that in the words of a point guard that he's "learned pretty much all there is to learn". He knows that and I know that and he pushes himself and I push him as well. Sometimes he frustrates the hell out of me but his forward progress remains forward.

Frankly I'm pretty much done posting here. Too many people on this board honestly hope for the destruction of different players. People talk and criticize while having only a very small part of the big picture. Kind of tired of it. Unfounded rumors and innuendo tossed around like fact. Posers who claim insider info only to be proven wrong and then scurrying like roaches into private forums. The same roaches who were happy to jeopardize a person's livelihood/business with said rumors that due to a confidentiality agreement with his employees should have never left the building. IGS I appreciate the defense of Fes and at the least for many of the other posters at least an open mind and a general desire to see Fes and others succeed. For the rest of you "haters" as the term may apply. Keep on hatin.

 

[Marty McFly]

Maynard? Really?

 

[InGameStrategy]

I think what's going wrong here is that we are looking to assign blame solely on one person: Sloan for being an obstinate jackass and not developing Fes, or Fes for not putting forth the effort to earn his playing time.

InGame, really I hope you see that the fault does not rest entirely on Sloan's shoulders as (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to indicate. And no, the blame is not entirely on Fes' shoulders either (in the sense that, hey, he's a body and could give us 5 solid - if foul-prone - minutes.

Nope; I've written multiple times that if Fes had had enough sense to realize that all it takes to get PT from Sloan is to tow the party line. So no, the fault does not rest entirely on Sloan's shoulders, assuming that Fes was really jackpotting around in practice as has been so widely reported (I"m not questioning that, too, although I do wonder about the magnitude of his mischief in practice that has caused it to be such a big deal).

In my eyes, the truth is that the majority of "blame" rests on the issue that Fes is not doing what he knows will get him playing time, i.e., working his tail off. Again, I'll reiterate: if he knows that Sloan requires hard work (in practice) to merit playing time, there is surely some fault of his when he doesn't accede to Sloan's conditions.

I place a large responsibility on Sloan also because it's the coach's job to get teams ready to play. In Fes's case, his jackpotting probably hurt his rate of progression, but the optimal strategy is not to DNP him for games on end. The optimal strategy is to tell him that he's getting 5 MPG or 10 MPG instead of 10 MPG or 15 MPG if he applied himself more. Sloan's spat with Kirilenko 5 or so years ago stemmed from Sloan not being clear with Kirilenko about his role. Just so the Sloan apologists to come slithering to his defense, Kirilenko bears some of the responsibility also. I guess that AK could've gone to Coach and said, "Coach, why have you reduced my minutes drastically for no reason, and why are people not passing the ball to me any more, and why have you not told me about it?", but that's tough for most 25-year-olds to bring themselves to do. A hall-of-fame coach should be an extremely effective communicator, and there is a pattern here that some JazzFanz deny. It's the same pattern of noncommunication when he lets Okur (and Boozer) stay in the game without any retribution for their matador defense. Okur wasn't usually scoring THAT much for it to be essential to be out there, and the theory behind benching Boozer for 5 minutes is that it'll be paid back in spades with better defense for the rest of the game. (And who knows; maybe his substitute will not display a dropoff from Booze anyway. In either case, a 5-minute benching anytime before the middle of Q4 isn't usually going to cost the Jazz the game.)

 

[InGameStrategy]

Maynard, Millsap, and Wes Matthews = Maynor, Millsap and Matthews. Millsap didn't get significant playing time until a couple of years into his contract. Maynor and Matthews both ONLY got playing time because of injuries to Miles and D-Will. If not for that, no amount of hard work would have allowed them the opportunities they were afforded. Sloan's hand was forced. Much in the same way that Fes finally saw some significant playing time. Look I can tell you that last year Fes was typically #1 or #2 to practice every day and #1 or #2 to shoot around as well. He was also one of the last to leave practice every day because he had extra workout time after regular practice with either Horny or Harpring. Yeah, you don't hear about all this because it is boring crap but is relevant.

Further evidence that not only does Sloan not necessarily reward in-game performance with more minutes, he doesn't even reward practice performance with more minutes. Ask Kosta Koufos about that, too. And sadly, everybody suffers: the team suffers because it stunts the development a crucial piece (a backup center or better), and the player suffers. It'll be interesting to see if Koufos can recover from his vastly stunted development. He really stunk it up last year, and he probably isn't as gifted athletically as Fesenko anyway, but the downward spiral from mid-rookie season was really tragic. Not every player has an upward trajectory, but it's reasonable to point at his baseless banishment to the bench after Boozer came back as a destruction of his focus and morale. Unlike Al jefferson in a sub-.500 Boston team or Deron Williams on a point-guard-dependent pick-and-roll offense, players with less talent (but enough to be in the NBA within the right situation) need to be developed. The post by go4jazz has confirmed much of what I have been arguing: that Fesenko wasn't being given an opportunity consistent with his performance. What I didn't know is the extent to which the dissing has been going on, and this isn't the first time.

What is really hypocritical (or more likely, ignorant) is Sloan preaching playing time for performance and then not allocating that precious resource equitably. There was no need for Millsap to have 28 MPG last season; Utah's results could've been the same giving some of those to the bigs, and it would've reaped rewards. And then there was the doggy defense from the first 7 in the rotation, giving plenty of reason to insert Fes into the rotation.

 

[Hopper]

Look I can tell you that last year Fes was typically #1 or #2 to practice every day and #1 or #2 to shoot around as well. He was also one of the last to leave practice every day because he had extra workout time after regular practice with either Horny or Harpring. Yeah, you don't hear about all this because it is boring crap but is relevant.

It's not borin to me. Do you think workin with Horny or Harp helped him improve in any way, or it that all senseless because the only thing that can improve a player is game time?

He and I are great friends and I've watched his progress from his first year until now and can say it has been a long steady upward trend. I am thrilled that Fes played for Sloan and for the Utah Jazz organization. He knows that it was the best thing for him as well. Had he gone to a party Miami team or somewhere else less disciplined he probably wouldn't be in the league. Do you hear what I am saying. Probably not because I've said the exact same thing before. I give credit to Sloan for much of his progress. I give credit to Sloan. Here...one more time...Sloan has helped in his development and his current position.

I haven't been arguing otherwise, and, as far as I know, I haven't been arguing with you about anything except your claim that ONLY game time can improve a player.

For every backwater crap publication you can find just as many quotes from Sloan, D-Will or Carmelo that backup what IGS and I have been trying to say.

What is it, exactly, that you (and S2, as you perceive it) are tryin to say?

I see a huge difference in his confidence and his desire to improve. other posters at least an open mind and a general desire to see Fes and others succeed. For the rest of you "haters" as the term may apply. Keep on hatin.

Appreciate your frank post, go4. I don't know why you think I am "hatin" on Fess, unless maybe because you claim to be personally very close to him you are therefore primed to "defend" him even if he isn't being attacked. I like Fess, and am optimistic about his chances with the Jazz. If his confidence and desire to improve has greatly improved, that alone would explain a lot about why he's playin better and why his coach and teammates perceive him differently, wouldn't it? As I said a long while back, I have thought Fess's limitations were more mental than physical.

Fess himself says he lost 20-25 pounds this summer. He says it is because he "practiced" twice a day, every day, from June 26 to August 29 with the ukrainian national team (doesn't mention games at all--did they play any, or are they just preparing at this point?). He says the weight loss has helped him "a lot,'" and even says he would like to lose some more fat then gain back about 5 pounds of muscle. Being in good shape generally does wonders for confidence, and I don't see it as just coincidental if he is indeed more confident after practicing twice a day and losing 25 unnecessary pounds. This does undercut the claim, however, that only increased playing time can have a positive effect on his game and contribute to his improvement.

Fess says this year he has become more "professional" and more "adult." That's him, not me or dimemag sayin it. He says a pro must be consistent, and says that he isn't, but is trying to be. If he can admit to his lack of maturity in prior years and acknowledge his own inconsistency, why is it "hatin" for someone else to refer to it? Fess himself, Deron, Sloan, and others have all noted a difference in his "attitude" this year. It is not an increase in game-time that he, or anyone else, thinks is the major difference--and that's all this disagreement (between me, S2 and others) is really about.

Fess himself says he has "definitely" gotten more serious about the game and that he is workin on havin better mental focus this year. If true, and I assume it is, that bodes well for his future. But he himself is basically sayin he was at least somewhat lacking in those areas in prior years.

So what's this argument all about? Well, simply the claim that Sloan has prevented Fess from improving in the past and that the ONLY thing that could have happened for Fess to change for the better was to play in games, whether serious or not, focused or not, professional, or not. Fess himself seems to dispel such claims:

https://1320kfan.com/index.php/audio/listen/jazz_shootaround_kyrylo_fesenko_oct_14

 

[chemdude1232]

Nope; I've written multiple times that if Fes had had enough sense to realize that all it takes to get PT from Sloan is to tow the party line. So no, the fault does not rest entirely on Sloan's shoulders, assuming that Fes was really jackpotting around in practice as has been so widely reported (I"m not questioning that, too, although I do wonder about the magnitude of his mischief in practice that has caused it to be such a big deal).

I place a large responsibility on Sloan also because it's the coach's job to get teams ready to play. In Fes's case, his jackpotting probably hurt his rate of progression, but the optimal strategy is not to DNP him for games on end. The optimal strategy is to tell him that he's getting 5 MPG or 10 MPG instead of 10 MPG or 15 MPG if he applied himself more. Sloan's spat with Kirilenko 5 or so years ago stemmed from Sloan not being clear with Kirilenko about his role. Just so the Sloan apologists to come slithering to his defense, Kirilenko bears some of the responsibility also. I guess that AK could've gone to Coach and said, "Coach, why have you reduced my minutes drastically for no reason, and why are people not passing the ball to me any more, and why have you not told me about it?", but that's tough for most 25-year-olds to bring themselves to do. A hall-of-fame coach should be an extremely effective communicator, and there is a pattern here that some JazzFanz deny. It's the same pattern of noncommunication when he lets Okur (and Boozer) stay in the game without any retribution for their matador defense. Okur wasn't usually scoring THAT much for it to be essential to be out there, and the theory behind benching Boozer for 5 minutes is that it'll be paid back in spades with better defense for the rest of the game. (And who knows; maybe his substitute will not display a dropoff from Booze anyway. In either case, a 5-minute benching anytime before the middle of Q4 isn't usually going to cost the Jazz the game.)

It's looking like our source of disagreement rests on perspective then. Coach vs. player, teacher vs. student, whatever you want to call it. I'll readily agree that, on the surface at least, Sloan's propensity to bench (i.e. DNP) Fes for games on end reeks of bitterness and the inability to "let go," as long as you'll agree (and it seems like you do agree) that a contributing factor is Fes' so-called jackpotting which, well-enough-known, is something that ticks off Sloan.

This raises a good question: why did none of the team mates act as intermediary with Sloan? Or at the very least, why did none of them help Fes figure out how to get on Sloan's good side? Doesn't this seem like there are some other things going on? Things that are known only to the team, and not outsiders?

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I think Fess is realizing he can get to the line a lot. With his size and mobility, he's tough to guard. The question is whether he'll hit a respectable percentage of his free throws. I'm sure he's working on it.

 

[go4jazz]

Never said that only game time was necessary for improvement. What I said is that without game time his upside/improvement is limited. Absolutely practice is necessary and once he is fufilling that part, he needs time in games. Kosta and Memo can only push you so far. Sparring partners only prepare you so much. Flight simulators only teach pre-defined scenarios. There is no substitute for real-life in-game experience.

 

[chemdude1232]

I don't mean this antagonistically, go4jazz, but rather as a point of curiosity: being Fes' friend, have you ever asked him why Sloan doesn't play him regardless of his ongoing tail-busting in practice?