We’re getting pie faced on Last Dance

[416Klawzz]

On the flip side some are giving us respect...

 

[FabioJazz]

I agree. Much is mentioned about Utah having two HOFers in Stockton and Malone but Stockton was never a score-first, or even a score-second PG. Hornacek became Utah's second scoring option when he arrived and as much as I love him, and all he brought to the Jazz (certainly, his arrival was enough to finally get the Jazz out of the West), he wasn't the consistent scoring threat Utah needed to compensate for Malone's fades on the national stage (also another reason the Jazz just plain struggled getting out of the West for so many years).

I mentioned Horny was Utah's second-leading scorer in 1998 at like 14 PPG. For the Bulls, Pippen was averaging nearly 20 points - and Kukoc was just behind Horny at 13.3 PPG. Granted, the NBA was much more low-scoring back then but who'd you rather have as your second scoring threat: Hornacek or Pippen? Horny was our second-best consistent scoring option and he was basically on the same level oas Kukoc.

But some of those 90s teams, like Seattle with Kemp & Payton and Houston with Hakeem & Drexler, had their top-two scorers averaging 20+ PPG.

The last time the 90s Jazz had a second-scorer averaging 20+ points a game was Jeff Malone in 1992. In fact, that was the only season in the 1990s where that happened.

Jazz needed a bigger scoring threat to beat the Bulls. They just couldn't get it with Horny. And worse, when the Jazz got it from Horny, they generally didn't get it from Malone.

In game two of the 1998 NBA Finals, Horny had a helluva game, scoring 20 points on 7/11 shooting - the team's highest scorer. Malone choked, though, finishing with 16 points on 5/16 shooting.

In game three, Malone was the ONLY Jazz player to play well, and even then, he still came in well-below his season average. He finished with 22 points on 8/11 shooting. Horny? Six points on 3/8 shooting. This was, of course, the game where the Jazz had the fewest points in NBA Finals history (err, at least of the shotclock era). Completely abysmal.

In game four, Malone again had an okay night, but again came in below his season average, scoring 21 points on 10/21 shooting. Horny 8 points on 3/8 shooting (again!). The Jazz was more competitive but they eventually lost.

In game five, Malone balled the **** out. He had 39 points and nearly single-handedly staved off elimination. Horny? 9 points on 2/11 shooting. But even Malone's Herculean effort was almost not enough. Antoine Carr was Utah's second-leading scorer ... with twelve. The Jazz escape and push the series back to Salt Lake where...

In game six, Malone again shows up. He has 31 points on 11/19 shooting. Horny finally shows up too - putting in 17 points. But MJ finished with 45. And that's all she wrote.

Game six sucks but I don't fault the Jazz for losing it too much because MJ just had an obscene night. Maybe they should have double-teamed him and let Pippen beat 'em (who was having back problems), but this wasn't an effort loss. The problem isn't that the Jazz lost this game - it's that they lost two winnable games because of effort and pissing away the performances you likely need to win these types of games.

Malone had a horrible game two. Had he put in the same level of success he did in Chicago, the Jazz win that game and this is likely a seven-game series. Maybe the Jazz still lose .. but it doesn't come down to that one game. And had Hornacek actually put in even an effort we expected from him in the regular season, the Jazz maybe win game four to boot. Win game five, and put the Bulls in a position they've never faced in the Finals - the brink of elimination. Maybe, maybe ... Jordan doesn't drop 45. Maybe, just maybe, Stockton, sensing the NBA championship is RIGHT THERE, literally takes over in the final minutes of game six. Maybe...maybe...maybe.

What is known is that Malone was a fantastic player but he's not a top-tener for a reason and it's because he lacked the inability to do what Jordan did in game six. He came close in game five, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't consistent.

Jordan had that unbelievable killer instinct that just decimated so many teams.

Just look at his game six performances in both Finals against the Jazz:

1997: 39
1998: 45

The only other player who I think has touched that is Kobe.

I would have loved to see MJ in a game seven, though, with so much on the line and in a situation he's never been in before (at least at the Finals level).

So, as to not add too much more to this already ridiculously long rant, Malone was not top-flight consistent enough in the NBA playoffs/Finals for the Jazz' second-best scorer to be Horny.

I agree with you. But actually we won the game 6 of the 98 finals. We score more points than Bulls. Those two bad calls changed the game.

I think it was not Malone's fault. He was a monster in game 5, like you said. But he almost always played alone. Only one reliable scoring option helps opponent's defenses.

On the other hand, we confused the Bulls defense in that game because Antoine Carr was effective in mid range shooting. We could win. It hurts.

I watched this video, by the way. So many memories

 

[vj_74]

A bit painful to watch especially for those of us who followed the Jazz of the late 90s.

Takeaways:

1. Jazz was a one-man offense. Malone was criminally underrated those years and maybe even now. The second-best option was a one-legged Horny with <15ppg who was never athletic enough to begin with. This was a joke. Bulls were clearly more talented and younger.

2. Jazz management did squat to upgrade the team since that 1997 finals loss. Botched trades don't count. You need to get the job done. But LHM was a pennypincher and keeping the team "competetive" was the goal. When you get your asses handed to you in 97 and you come back with practically the same team in 98 against a team that is younger and has the GOAT, what do you expect? 99-2003 was even more terrible. Armen Gilliam, Quincy Lewis, Pete Chilcut..the list of scrubs is a long one. Malone deserves the biggest statue outside the arena.You take him out, Jazz are'nt even a playoff contender.


3.Bulls had all their stars aligned. Despite all that talent, they got right breaks at the right time, right calls(or no calls). It seems , despite Jordan's greatness and all that, luck was always smiling on them.

4. Despite Malone's perceived saltiness and refusal to appear in this TV show, the fact that he went on that Chicago bus to congratulate them after game 6/1998, showed his class. He was probably the most heartbroken player on that team.

5. We may never see another guy like John Stockton again, the complete package he was.I hope I am wrong.

6. Coach Sloan was the man. A lot of the supporting case, when they left Utah, they just withered. It shows how Sloan and his system had maximized their potential. Russel, Eisley were borderline scrubs. We may never see another one like him again.

7. Byron Russel was a dumbass. If he had not shot his mouth off and pissed off Jordan, that may have been his greatest contribution to Jazz. His mouth always played a much better game than what he did on-court. Jordan had analyzed his weaknesses threadbare and exposed them repeatedly in 97 and then in 98.

 

[JimLes]

Despite Malone's perceived saltiness and refusal to appear in this TV show

I for one, fully support him. This isn't a documentary, it's an old-fashioned hagiography. It may as well be a narrative film with actors. I cut the cord long ago and thankfully don't see any commercials, so I'll be damned if I'm going to watch an 8-hour one for Michael Jordan's shoes.

 

[Sean]

A bit painful to watch especially for those of us who followed the Jazz of the late 90s.

Takeaways:

1. Jazz was a one-man offense. Malone was criminally underrated those years and maybe even now. The second-best option was a one-legged Horny with <15ppg who was never athletic enough to begin with. This was a joke. Bulls were clearly more talented and younger.

Chicago definitely had more talent dispersed on the court than the Jazz did in 1998. The Jazz' second-best player (offensively) was Jeff Hornacek and he would have likely been Chicago's fourth-best and only a marginally better upgrade than someone like Steve Kerr. Stockton was likely overall a better player than anyone else on the Bulls' roster outside Jordan and Pippen, but offensively, beyond his creating shots for (mostly) Malone, he struggled consistently scoring.

Plus, Jordan was Jordan. I said it before, and I will stand by it, as great as Malone was, he didn't have the ability to consistently take over a game on the level Jordan did. Game Six is the best example of this. Malone had a very good game - hell, a great game - but Jordan had an even better one. Jordan made the plays to win the Bulls that title. Malone, sadly, turned it over when he could have likely put the Jazz up three - and it was Jordan who made the steal, and then the shot, to win it. That's not to knock Malone. He carried the Jazz and you could make the claim that his carrying 'em for so long is exactly why he faded, at times, in the NBA playoffs. But the Jazz DID miss that clutch performance - either from Malone hitting his free throws in game one of the 1997 NBA Finals, to holding on and making shots to win game five of that series ... to not botching the inbound in game six that allowed the Bulls to seal the win.

That's the big stomach punch. Those series, outside maybe a handful of games, were close as **** - especially the '97 NBA Finals. Most every one of those games came down to the final minute. Only once in 1997 did the Jazz make the clutch plays in a game that was getting away from 'em (game four). Game three that year was one the Jazz controlled for most of it. But on the Bulls' side, you had Jordan's game-winner in game one (had Malone made his free throws, it only ties the game and sends it to OT). You had the Jazz going completely cold at the end of game five (the flu game - imagine history if the Jazz didn't blow it and give MJ one of the greatest performances ever). Thinking back to that game five, the Jazz led 85-83 with 2:25 left and Malone at the line, already making one free throw. He missed the second. Pippen was then fouled and only made one of two. After a missed shot on a rebound from that missed free throw, the Jazz had the lead and the ball with 1:24 left in the game. Stockton then took a three - and missed. Russell rebounded and the Jazz AGAIN had the ball, now worked the game clock down to about a minute before Malone missed a two-point shot and Pippen rebounded.

With 46 seconds left in the game, Jordan was fouled by Stockton and only managed one of two free throws. This is where the game collapses for the Jazz and it really goes back to my point about Jordan making the plays.

Jordan gets the rebound on his owned missed free throw and then, about 20 seconds later, hits a three to put the Bulls up three with 25 seconds left. Ostertag scores a quick two and the Bulls push their lead back to three with six seconds left.

Horny puts up a three, but misses. Stockton rebounds with no time on the clock, but is fouled and, really, the game is over.

Jazz lose.

In that game, which would have changed the trajectory of the entire series, Stockton had a chance to put the Jazz up four with 1:24 left to go ... but he misses.

Malone then has a chance to put the Jazz up three with 1:04 left ... but he misses.

And, tied, the Jazz fail to secure a rebound on a missed Jordan free throw, which allows for Jordan to hit his monster three to put the Bulls up for good.

Of course, Horny's three at the end to tie fails to drop.

Jazz drop game five and look all but done heading back to Chicago.

Credit Utah for playing tough in game six. I don't think anyone thought the Bulls would lose that one. The Jazz actually led at the half 44-37. The Jazz actually led heading into the fourth quarter. With 7:55 left in the game, Karl Malone put the Jazz 76-74. It was the last time they led. It was also one of the last times Malone would score again. Malone's last score came with 3:14 to go - over four minutes of game time after his last score. Malone hit a 10 footer to get the Jazz within one.

With 1:44 to go, the Jazz actually got their last score - a Bryon Russell three to tie it. The game remained tied until Kerr's shot with five seconds left. Then, of course, Russell's failed inbound pass.

My point? Just looking at 1997, the Bulls hit the shots needed to put 'em ahead at the very end.

Jordan's buzzer beater in game one.
Jordan's three-pointer with 20 seconds left to put the Bulls up three.
Kerr's two-pointer with five seconds left to put the Bulls up two.

Those shots just weren't there for the Jazz, sans game four's late-game heroics.

And they weren't really there in 1998, either, sans Stockton's massive runner to put Utah up four in overtime.

The lack of overall clutch play killed the Jazz.

2. Jazz management did squat to upgrade the team since that 1997 finals loss. Botched trades don't count. You need to get the job done. But LHM was a pennypincher and keeping the team "competetive" was the goal. When you get your asses handed to you in 97 and you come back with practically the same team in 98 against a team that is younger and has the GOAT, what do you expect? 99-2003 was even more terrible. Armen Gilliam, Quincy Lewis, Pete Chilcut..the list of scrubs is a long one. Malone deserves the biggest statue outside the arena.You take him out, Jazz are'nt even a playoff contender.

I agree. Don't forge Todd Fuller. The Jazz added him to the roster in 1999 and he was maybe one of the softest, weakest players to ever suit up in a Jazz uniform. You know, I am convinced he's a big reason why the Jazz didn't beat the Blazers in the semis that year. Dude was at the line with like four seconds left in game three against the Kings, and he couldn't hit the free throws. He missed both. The Jazz lose, then have to pull out all the stops in game four to even get it to a game five, which then goes to overtime and it absolutely zapped the Jazz. Utah wins game three and four against the Kings, they get some rest heading into the Blazers series and maybe they pull that out. Maybe they don't because those Blazers were more talented overall ... but yeesh. It was awful how often the Jazz would parade around these white stiffs or well past their prime players (like bringing back Thurl Bailey ... why?!?). The only move that I felt was solid in that era was when the Jazz brought in Donyell Marshall and even then, they got Calvin Booth'd in game five against Dallas.

3.Bulls had all their stars aligned. Despite all that talent, they got right breaks at the right time, right calls(or no calls). It seems , despite Jordan's greatness and all that, luck was always smiling on them.

Good teams get lucky - great teams take advantage of the luck.

The Bulls always took advantage of their luck. The Jazz never really could in those playoffs. I outlined a few sequences above but game five in 1997 is a great example of this.

How often does Pippen miss a free throw? In the '97 playoffs, he shot 80% from the line. Yet, with 2:25 to go in game five, and the Jazz up two, he does. Even still, the Bulls got the rebound on that missed free throw - but still couldn't score before Horny pulled it down. Utah had the ball, up one, and Stockton misses a three. LUCK roars, though, and the Jazz get the rebound. They milk the clock down to just a little over a minute ... and Malone misses a shot. Chicago rebounds and now Jordan's at the line.

How often does Jordan miss a free throw? In the '97 playoffs, he shot 83%. Yet, with 46 seconds left, after tying the game with the first, he MISSES the second. But the Jazz again fail to get rebound, and in fact Jordan gets his OWN damn rebound, and then eventually hits a three 20 or so seconds later.

Game.

You're right. The Bulls needed some luck. But the Jazz had a lot of luck, too. Like Malone being at the line at the end of game one. Or Pippen having horrible back pains in game six of the '98 Finals. But the Jazz just never could take advantage of those lucky situations. The Bulls did. Almost every time it seems. When they needed a shot, they got it. When they needed a stop, they got it. When they needed a turnover, they got it. I think that's the big difference right there and maybe it was a byproduct of the Bulls having been there so many times before. It just seemed, for the most part, the Jazz wilted under the lights of the big stage.

 

[vj_74]

Not denying that the Jazz weren't clutch enough at the end. But the Bulls had championship experience, more bullets and the GOAT(and as a bonus- "Dick" Bavetta). Tough to beat that. For all that triangle or rectangle offense or whatever, at the end of these tight games the Bulls offense was just about giving the ball to MJ and clearing the way as Pippen mentions in the series. Iso plays, that's all. I didn't see any triangle out there.

 

[vj_74]

I also believe the 10-day layoff before 98 finals threw the Jazz off their rhythm. You would think it would have helped those old legs, but it made them a bit rusty. It took them till game 5 to get their offense back. Stock and Horny were also not 100%, as MJ himself observed after that series got over. Of course they wouldn't let you know even if they weren't 100%

 

[Sean]

Not denying that the Jazz weren't clutch enough at the end. But the Bulls had championship experience, more bullets and the GOAT(and as a bonus- "Dick" Bavetta). Tough to beat that. For all that triangle or rectangle offense or whatever, at the end of these tight games the Bulls offense was just about giving the ball to MJ and clearing the way as Pippen mentions in the series. Iso plays, that's all. I didn't see any triangle out there.

I said as much when I said their success could have been a byproduct of the Bulls having been there so many times.

It really makes you wonder how things would have turned out differently if the Jazz didn't blow game five against Houston in 1995.

Knock out the Rockets, then beat the Suns and Spurs to play an Orlando team in the NBA Finals that they likely matched up very well with.

That experience might've been enough to get 'em back to the NBA Finals a year later, even if they didn't beat the Bulls, and enough to actually win game one in 1997 - and maybe subsequently the series.

Just imagine a world where Utah beat Houston and...

Beat Orlando 4-1 to win the NBA title in 1995
Lost to Chicago 4-2 in the 1996 NBA Finals
Beat Chicago 4-2 in the 1997 NBA Finals
Beat Chicago 4-3 in the 1997 NBA Finals

Jazz would've been a dynasty at the end of the 90s.

 

[Deleted member 95]

I said as much when I said their success could have been a byproduct of the Bulls having been there so many times.

It really makes you wonder how things would have turned out differently if the Jazz didn't blow game five against Houston in 1995.

Knock out the Rockets, then beat the Suns and Spurs to play an Orlando team in the NBA Finals that they likely matched up very well with.

That experience might've been enough to get 'em back to the NBA Finals a year later, even if they didn't beat the Bulls, and enough to actually win game one in 1997 - and maybe subsequently the series.

Just imagine a world where Utah beat Houston and...

Beat Orlando 4-1 to win the NBA title in 1995
Lost to Chicago 4-2 in the 1996 NBA Finals
Beat Chicago 4-2 in the 1997 NBA Finals
Beat Chicago 4-3 in the 1997 NBA Finals

Jazz would've been a dynasty at the end of the 90s.

Also gotta think a few vets woulda piggybacked for 96 97 98 if they won in 95

 

[Miggs]

I said as much when I said their success could have been a byproduct of the Bulls having been there so many times.

It really makes you wonder how things would have turned out differently if the Jazz didn't blow game five against Houston in 1995.

Knock out the Rockets, then beat the Suns and Spurs to play an Orlando team in the NBA Finals that they likely matched up very well with.

That experience might've been enough to get 'em back to the NBA Finals a year later, even if they didn't beat the Bulls, and enough to actually win game one in 1997 - and maybe subsequently the series.

Just imagine a world where Utah beat Houston and...

Beat Orlando 4-1 to win the NBA title in 1995
Lost to Chicago 4-2 in the 1996 NBA Finals
Beat Chicago 4-2 in the 1997 NBA Finals
Beat Chicago 4-3 in the 1997 NBA Finals

Jazz would've been a dynasty at the end of the 90s.

Not following your logic. Why would we have lost to the Bulls in 96 but beat them in 97 and 98 when they were better in those years and would have had the confidence since they would’ve hypothetically beat us in 96.

 

[Sean]

Not following your logic. Why would we have lost to the Bulls in 96 but beat them in 97 and 98 when they were better in those years and would have had the confidence since they would’ve hypothetically beat us in 96.

Not really difficult to follow. The 1996 Bulls lost only 10 games and swept the season series against the Jazz that year (by five in SLC and then 14 in Chicago). That Bulls team is often considered the greatest team in NBA history. The Jazz were better in 1996-97, not just record-wise (they won nine more games for the most wins, at the time, in franchise history) but also did better head-to-head - splitting the series.

I believe the Jazz was equal to Chicago in 1997, which was evident in the closeness of nearly every game (losing at the buzzer in game one, losing in the final seconds in games five and six). I doubt the 1996 Finals would have been as close, even if the Jazz had won the title a year before, because they weren't near the level of Chicago that season. They would be a year later - and likely even the better team in 1997-1998 (or should have been, anyway). In 1995, they very well could have proven the best team in the NBA and still a few steps behind where they would inevitably finish a year later (hence grabbing the 1st seed in 1997 for the first time in franchise history).

 

[Miggs]

Still completely disagree. If they beat us in ‘96, they have that confidence deep down that they will beat us in subsequent years. We likewise probably feel the opposite and though stronger, question ourselves in monumental spots. Like Karl at the free throw line in game 1.