vslice02
Well-Known Member
Even the Jefferson trade can't makeup for the fact KOC didn't fire Sloan and hire Vinny Del Negro. Talk about a no-brainer.
We still have one problem!
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KhaOZ
Well-Known Member
You know. It's funny cause you always hear other coaches talk about how great Sloan is. Other players talk about how they'd love to play for the guy. Even Boozer went on about how Sloan did a lot for him and helped him grow up. I've heard a few superstar players even say they'd consider playing in Utah just to play for Sloan(Shaq like 6 years ago). I don't get why so many Utah fans hate him. He's far from perfect and even I get real frustrated with some of his decisions, but he's still a top notch coach.
Because Jazz fans know better and can see behind the mystique of the coach. Don't get me wrong, Sloan is a good coach, he's just not a great coach. What it comes down to is how you, personally, rate coaches...meaning, what do you use as a barometer.
KhaOZ
Well-Known Member
It's hard to rate Coaches. If we could put Sloan on the bulls with Jordan, Pippen, etc, or have him Coach the Lakers with Shaq, Kobe or whatever, would he have just as many championships? If Sloan spent over 20 years coaching for big market teams with good management and tons of cash to throw around, would he be considered one of the greatest of all time? No way to tell.
All I do know is, he's a good coach.
Hopper
Banned
Player after player, coach after coach, media "expert" after media expert, all around the league and the country, for that matter, routinely praise Sloan and his players (an indirect praise of Sloan) for their training, discipline, precise execution, and effort. Not a lot more a coach can do beyond instill and maintain those qualities--that's true whether he has either grade-school or NBA quality talent (although it's much easier to accomplish with grade-schoolers in many ways).
Just quit bitchin, Jazzhaterz.
Just quit bitchin, Jazzhaterz.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Sloan is an effective coach of players who already have discipline and work ethic.
Which is kind of like saying that a doctor is effective with patients who know how help to heal themselves.
Which is kind of like saying that a doctor is effective with patients who know how help to heal themselves.
David Stern
Well-Known Member
David Stern
Well-Known Member
Damn straight.
How about "a doctor who can only treat healthy patients." Better?
Mambo
Member
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Sloan's system is valuable, and Al Jefferson's comments in his press conference support that notion. Locke analyzed hundreds of plays and saw that AJ's teammates rarely helped him score (no picks, no nothing). Sloan wouldn't put up with that.
And Sloan typically gets along just fine with players who work hard or behave well (Stock, Malone, Horny, 'Tree' Collins, Fish, Bell, McLeod, the post-rookie Deron, even the brownnosing Boozer, and the "I'm just gonna go out there and play hard" Okur (even though he didn't work out much in the off-season)).
But those players are easy to coach.
By contrast, Sloan didn't even enforce defense from his starting bigs.
And CJ took years to develop--no impressive coaching there; Millsap and Matthews seem to have developed a lot on their own.
And KF & KK2 are still raw after years on the team--no points on development there.
And he still played two undersized PFs against a substantially taller Laker lineup at the end of games.
And he still doesn't seem to adjust to athletic lineups (although at least the team has better wings, now, which helps).
Chad Feldheimer
Well-Known Member
"By contrast, Sloan didn't even enforce defense from his starting bigs."
What is supposed to do? Yell at Fesenko? "Goddammnit Fes be more like Gasol!!"
"And CJ took years to develop--no impressive coaching there; Millsap and Matthews seem to have developed a lot on their own."
CJ came out of high school, Matthews & Millsap both were starters and had extensive college minutes.
'And KF & KK2 are still raw after years on the team--no points on development there."
KK can't play. Period. He will be out of the league soon enough. Not his fault if the guy can't play. Hell he is going to be 5th or 6th on the Minnesota depth chart and they don't want him either.
Maybe he should have given Fes a few more minutes, but over Okur, Boozer & Millsap? I mean he is trying to win games, not develop players.
"And he still played two undersized PFs against a substantially taller Laker lineup at the end of games."
Honestly do you think Gasol would have been slowed down by Fes or Doufus? Also it pretty much eliminates the offensive threat, where the Lakers are best(on defense). Good luck with that.
What is supposed to do? Yell at Fesenko? "Goddammnit Fes be more like Gasol!!"
"And CJ took years to develop--no impressive coaching there; Millsap and Matthews seem to have developed a lot on their own."
CJ came out of high school, Matthews & Millsap both were starters and had extensive college minutes.
'And KF & KK2 are still raw after years on the team--no points on development there."
KK can't play. Period. He will be out of the league soon enough. Not his fault if the guy can't play. Hell he is going to be 5th or 6th on the Minnesota depth chart and they don't want him either.
Maybe he should have given Fes a few more minutes, but over Okur, Boozer & Millsap? I mean he is trying to win games, not develop players.
"And he still played two undersized PFs against a substantially taller Laker lineup at the end of games."
Honestly do you think Gasol would have been slowed down by Fes or Doufus? Also it pretty much eliminates the offensive threat, where the Lakers are best(on defense). Good luck with that.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Fes is raw, but he wasn't the problem defensively. And it's hyperbole to expect Fes to be more like Gasol if Fes doesn't get the minutes.
You're talking about a different defect; poor player development by the coaches. The #1 way to make Fes somewhat more like Gasol is to give him playing time. And the irony is that more often than not, Fes was a net asset on the court anyway, despite limited scoring, so it wasn't like it should have been necessary to find time for Fes anyway. Bigs especailly need court time to develop, and Sloan made minimal effort to do so.
But unlike Popovich with Duncan (earlier in his career), Sloan didn't ever sit down Boozer when he was dogging.
Boozer's defense was the problem. Even though it was a contract year, he played D only part of the year, and was pretty ineffective against the Fakers.
That's why I said "no impressive coaching." It took three or four years for CJ to start being a positive contributor. I doubt that this is average even for a high-school player, but it certainly isn't outstanding. Also, Sloan didn't enforce defense from CJ, either, which was a core part of his development. It's likely IMHO that CJ would've developed faster if Sloan had played CJ less time; benching CJ faster when he was dogging it on defense--and telling him that he was doing so.
College might have given WM and PM more maturity, but they improved significantly even further from Day 1 in the NBA, and I attribute this more to their own work ethic than anything that Sloan did except supporting them in their efforts. Point is that players like Matthews and Millsap would be relatively easy to coach. But games and championships are won by coaches being able to develop and incorporate players who are less naturally motivated and talented. Think role players. Doc Rivers was able to develop (or at least play) Perkins; but Sloan made no effort whatsoever to find PT for Utah's bigs, even though it was blatantly clear (from Greg Miller to KOC to everyone on down) that interior defense was Utah's #1 problem.
KK might be a career backup at best, showed promise in his first year, and then Sloan shut him down for no reason.
Fesenko is a goof-off, but Sloan hasn't given either of these players minutes, even when the outcome of the game wasn't in question.
Utah lost against the Lakers because of injury (missed AK on the wing; I don't think that Okur was a big loss because he's too slow, even though he tries hard) and height (all Sloan proved is that two undersized PFs can't beat two players at 6'10" or taller).
You are exposing your ignorance if you are oblivious to the negative impact of Boozer's and Okur's defense.
Yes, because the paint was slowed down when Fes was in the game. With Fes playing alongside Boozer instead of Millsap, Utah outscored or matched L.A.'s scoring in every single playoff game. And that was against mostly Faker starters. Sloan should have known that Boozer + Millsap down the stretch was ineffective because it hasn't worked for years and didn't work early in the series.
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Ingame, what you gotta realize is that to be a true-blue Jazz fan, you must accept J-Slo as the bestest of all-time. Just count the rings! Okay, the rings he woulda had if not for Jordan. And Magic. And Isaia. And Hakeem. And and and. If he only coulda had a couple of good players for awhile he coulda done it!
Second, as to developing players, forget it! It is much more important to protect the world from "jackpotters".
Finally, Sloan is a very very good coach, and one of the best for the regular season. But he is a serious underperformer in the post season.
So, yes, if you want to win a championship, Sloan is a problem. 20 plus years do not lie.
IBleedAggieBlue
Member
Bad Threads
I am fairly open minded when it comes to this board. Often times I see some crazy post and think, "well, that's their opinion!" I shake my head and move on. Rarely there comes a post that is so ridiculous, that I believe that the person/poster should somehow be banned or fined.
Such posts occurred twice this week. This post and the Vegas Jazz posts are some of the worst I've read in a long time. Please Jazz Fans, are these really your thoughts or are you in some kind of post Jefferson stupor?? Did you write these from a meth house?? Are you suffereing from a stroke? I would accept any of the above as to a legitimate reasons as to why you would embarass yourselves.
Let this be a warning to you!!!
I am fairly open minded when it comes to this board. Often times I see some crazy post and think, "well, that's their opinion!" I shake my head and move on. Rarely there comes a post that is so ridiculous, that I believe that the person/poster should somehow be banned or fined.
Such posts occurred twice this week. This post and the Vegas Jazz posts are some of the worst I've read in a long time. Please Jazz Fans, are these really your thoughts or are you in some kind of post Jefferson stupor?? Did you write these from a meth house?? Are you suffereing from a stroke? I would accept any of the above as to a legitimate reasons as to why you would embarass yourselves.
Let this be a warning to you!!!
Yeah, like how he underperformed on his way to beating a Nuggets team with two of his starters out, and with no homecourt, right? Moron
How many rings has he won? I suspect he is just about the longest term pro coach ever without a ring. That's the point.
Funny how you attribute those wins against Denver to Sloan and continue to demean Fes at every opportunity. You know the guy who became the starter. Might as well have been playing with 4 guys.
The problem with Sloan is that he's a pretty darn good coach... If he sucked like 98% of persons who've tried his profession while he's been at it, it would be easy for us fans to see it and we'd at least get to biotch in unison.
InGameStrat - you can't say "Sloan becnched KK FOR NO REASON" and expect us to take you seriously. Sloan had a reason, which i've explained to you many times. At least say, he benched KK for the reason that sloan thought the best way to win and win as many games as possible was to stay with his best players and not take any game-practice-time away from them and give it to KK." That is why he did it and you can say that is a bad idea. But it wasn't for NO reason.
You also note that Popovich did sit Tim Duncan down a few times to 'teach him a lesson' of sorts to play D. Do you think that the situation wtih Carlos Boozer last year was the same state in his relationship with the Jazz as TimD was/is with the Spurs? No. So your response is "what about previous years. If Sloan really believed in D, he should have sat Boozer's big A on the bench and taught him a thing or to." Well if there's one thing we know it is that Carlos would have been fine with that. He would have understood and done right by the team. And then he'd come back better than ever and not tank his trade value or or screw up the locker room or anything. He's a consumate team player... like Tim D appears to be.
OP, ZMAN and other Sloan detractors: I would doubt that any one here thinks that Sloan is a god of any sort or that he's the best ever - even the major Sloan apologists like myself. So your hyperbole just makes your case worse. I challenge you to make an argument why any coach out there would be a better suggestion that Jerry. It has to be better than "I don't know, but if we had any brains, we'd find someone..." Maybe you could explain how easy it would be to take a group of prima donnas and get them to operate together in a ultra efficienct team mode. Maybe you could explain to us why Jerry's theory on prefering short range shots over a model with more emphasis on the 3-ball is a bad idea? Help us to understand why 'getting players who play your system - You know, which is like a doctor seeing healthy patients" is a bad strategy.
Fill us in and we can then begin to understand why we are so ignorant to think Jerry is worthy keeping.
InGameStrat - you can't say "Sloan becnched KK FOR NO REASON" and expect us to take you seriously. Sloan had a reason, which i've explained to you many times. At least say, he benched KK for the reason that sloan thought the best way to win and win as many games as possible was to stay with his best players and not take any game-practice-time away from them and give it to KK." That is why he did it and you can say that is a bad idea. But it wasn't for NO reason.
You also note that Popovich did sit Tim Duncan down a few times to 'teach him a lesson' of sorts to play D. Do you think that the situation wtih Carlos Boozer last year was the same state in his relationship with the Jazz as TimD was/is with the Spurs? No. So your response is "what about previous years. If Sloan really believed in D, he should have sat Boozer's big A on the bench and taught him a thing or to." Well if there's one thing we know it is that Carlos would have been fine with that. He would have understood and done right by the team. And then he'd come back better than ever and not tank his trade value or or screw up the locker room or anything. He's a consumate team player... like Tim D appears to be.
OP, ZMAN and other Sloan detractors: I would doubt that any one here thinks that Sloan is a god of any sort or that he's the best ever - even the major Sloan apologists like myself. So your hyperbole just makes your case worse. I challenge you to make an argument why any coach out there would be a better suggestion that Jerry. It has to be better than "I don't know, but if we had any brains, we'd find someone..." Maybe you could explain how easy it would be to take a group of prima donnas and get them to operate together in a ultra efficienct team mode. Maybe you could explain to us why Jerry's theory on prefering short range shots over a model with more emphasis on the 3-ball is a bad idea? Help us to understand why 'getting players who play your system - You know, which is like a doctor seeing healthy patients" is a bad strategy.
Fill us in and we can then begin to understand why we are so ignorant to think Jerry is worthy keeping.