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Welcome to Election Day 2024,

When did you become such a doomer? Join a cult or something?

No clue why anyone would think Trump will dismantle social security. That’s definitely not happening. Trump TCJA was marginal help to low income seniors, marginal but everything helps when affording basics is tough. He campaigned on removing SS tax and also removing tax on treasuries which also helps pensioners. He’s not gutting social security.

Tariffs will make the economy fall apart? Pure fear mongering. I’m open to hearing the mechanics of how they’ll be so hurtful and not help, but nobody offering up much other than fear. Try reading Michael Pettis if this is a big concern. I think he could alleviate some fears, if not convince you to switch stances as he has so many others over last two decades. I haven’t read him comment on Smoot-Hawley but enough knowledge here to understand how silly comparing 1932 export powerhouse USA to 2024 high trade deficit importer USA is. Trade wars disproportionately affect surplus countries (the ones with jobs to lose). This is in part why it took the US until WWII to come out of the depression, where Europeans exited sooner.

Trade is not 100% of GDP and the potential inflation is being way overblown. Many of the Chinese manufacturers have high profit margins. Those will likely absorb the brunt of tariff increases on their products. Substitution and made at home can offset more. Imports are roughly 14% of GDP, so a 10% tariff could mean a 1.4% inflation bump on back of napkin. One time. Not compounding.

The current account must balance. This means we manufacture assets to make up the goods n services deficit. We are selling off $100 billion of our country per month, and have lost millions of jobs. This has gutted small town America as we had no retraining program to counter negative consequences of the Washington Consensus.


I found the part on reduced lifetime income important. That’s also loss of national income while increasing welfare load. Free trade is not one sided.

The worry that “they will retaliate” is backwards. Trump-Biden tariffs are the retaliation to Chinese beggar-thy-neighbor policies designed to gut US industry. Is your recommendation really do nothing? Not only have we allowed them to undercut our businesses through subsidy, theft, import controls, & artificial yen devaluation, there are big future problems with allowing this trend to continue. We lose knowledge and most importantly investment and innovation, lowering future competitiveness and economic security.

Responding to foreign mercantilism is patriotic. We can handle a tiny amount of incremental inflation. Call it an investment in our future.
Nobel prize winning economists disagree with you.

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So like I'm supposed to be understanding of why so many Americans voted for Trump and I can't assume it was because they are sympathetic to racism or misogyny, or just that they are angry because the society they live in expresses things that are different than what they want expressed, or that they are aggrieved by the reality that they are in a shrinking demographic which has previously used its power to oppress others. I have to invent a reason why all of these people are acting reasonably and rationally when they cannot themselves provide a coherent case for that?

It seems unfair to burden non-MAGA people with the requirement to be kind and sympathetic when MAGA does not place that burden on itself.
 
Just listened to Harris conceding speech. Was probably the only time she's sounded mostly genuine, pity she couldn't come across like this earlier. Also a pity she didn't do it last night
 
So like I'm supposed to be understanding of why so many Americans voted for Trump and I can't assume it was because they are sympathetic to racism or misogyny, or just that they are angry because the society they live in expresses things that are different than what they want expressed, or that they are aggrieved by the reality that they are in a shrinking demographic which has previously used its power to oppress others. I have to invent a reason why all of these people are acting reasonably and rationally when they cannot themselves provide a coherent case for that?

It seems unfair to burden non-MAGA people with the requirement to be kind and sympathetic when MAGA does not place that burden on itself.

maybe you could seek out some of those people and you know, ask them and listen >???
 
maybe you could seek out some of those people and you know, ask them and listen >???
I work with them. They spout off endlessly about this ****.

Knowing them and their actual opinions is not endearing. It is the opposite. The more I know MAGA supporters personally the less I like them and the less I like MAGA.
 
I work with them. They spout off endlessly about this ****.

Knowing them and their actual opinions is not endearing. It is the opposite. The more I know MAGA supporters personally the less I like them and the less I like MAGA.

is that many people though ?
 
I live in Utah and I work in a fairly misogynistic field. The company I work for now has 113 people doing the job I do and not one of them is a woman. Locker room talk is the normal talk,

fair call.

Dunno sometimes in life there are just people who aren't your people and there's no understanding those who don't see things your way. Some obviously have problematic issues but sometimes it is what it is and they're not bad people and that's ok

But yeah being that outnumbered in that kind of environment would suck
 
I work with them. They spout off endlessly about this ****.

Knowing them and their actual opinions is not endearing. It is the opposite. The more I know MAGA supporters personally the less I like them and the less I like MAGA.

Full on MAGA freaks are basically insufferable and there's no hope of communicating there. I think there's a decent amount of people who voted for Trump that are humans who are invested in the same basic principles that you and I are but have bought into some propaganda. A decent chance exists that they can be reasoned with and their energy can be redirected in a more productive direction.
 
Full on MAGA freaks are basically insufferable and there's no hope of communicating there. I think there's a decent amount of people who voted for Trump that are humans who are invested in the same basic principles that you and I are but have bought into some propaganda. A decent chance exists that they can be reasoned with and their energy can be redirected in a more productive direction.
I no longer have the patience to flip anyone. In real life I just avoid any political conversation at all costs.
 
Nobel prize winning economists disagree with you.

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Appeal to authority is lame and you are being closed minded. I’m guessing you haven’t read Paul Krugman’s “What Economists (Including Me) Got Wrong About Globalization” essay, anything from Lionel Gilbert prize winner, Bloomberg’s fifty most influential list, and highly, highly respected by fellow economists Michael Pettis, the study linked in the NPR article above or any other works by the authors, or have a clue on how much economists have gotten dead wrong over the decades. Being wrong is par the course for that profession, even including Nobel Prize winners. Probably the most influential economist of the last 50 years, Nobel Prize winner Milton Friedman’s work on monetarism has been all but discarded. Much of Eugene Fama’s work has been shown to have little to no value. Hell, the Taylor Rule, Phillips Curve, everything we still rely upon for central banking theory is somewhere between highly questioned to almost discarded.

Besides, none of these unnamed Nobel Prize Winners disagree with me.
 
Full on MAGA freaks are basically insufferable and there's no hope of communicating there. I think there's a decent amount of people who voted for Trump that are humans who are invested in the same basic principles that you and I are but have bought into some propaganda. A decent chance exists that they can be reasoned with and their energy can be redirected in a more productive direction.
This
 
Appeal to authority is lame and you are being closed minded. I’m guessing you haven’t read Paul Krugman’s “What Economists (Including Me) Got Wrong About Globalization” essay, anything from Lionel Gilbert prize winner, Bloomberg’s fifty most influential list, and highly, highly respected by fellow economists Michael Pettis, the study linked in the NPR article above or any other works by the authors, or have a clue on how much economists have gotten dead wrong over the decades. Being wrong is par the course for that profession, even including Nobel Prize winners. Probably the most influential economist of the last 50 years, Nobel Prize winner Milton Friedman’s work on monetarism has been all but discarded. Much of Eugene Fama’s work has been shown to have little to no value. Hell, the Taylor Rule, Phillips Curve, everything we still rely upon for central banking theory is somewhere between highly questioned to almost discarded.

Besides, none of these unnamed Nobel Prize Winners disagree with me.
Them getting it wrong is par for the course, so no need to ever listen to them, but definitely listen to the armchair economists who always get it right. But absolutely listen to the professionals when they agree with certain armchair economists since the armchair guys can see right through everything the pros get wrong. Right?
 
Appeal to authority is lame and you are being closed minded. I’m guessing you haven’t read Paul Krugman’s “What Economists (Including Me) Got Wrong About Globalization” essay, anything from Lionel Gilbert prize winner, Bloomberg’s fifty most influential list, and highly, highly respected by fellow economists Michael Pettis, the study linked in the NPR article above or any other works by the authors, or have a clue on how much economists have gotten dead wrong over the decades. Being wrong is par the course for that profession, even including Nobel Prize winners. Probably the most influential economist of the last 50 years, Nobel Prize winner Milton Friedman’s work on monetarism has been all but discarded. Much of Eugene Fama’s work has been shown to have little to no value. Hell, the Taylor Rule, Phillips Curve, everything we still rely upon for central banking theory is somewhere between highly questioned to almost discarded.

Besides, none of these unnamed Nobel Prize Winners disagree with me.

Lots of sources for ya:






A bit from just one of those sources: Economists mostly shun politics in favor of policy. We prefer to be aloof soothsayers giving voice to data and research rather than our own beliefs. A luminary in the profession once told me that “the only political party economists support is whichever is willing to be smart,” before adding, “and a smart economist would never join a political party.” And yet, in a stunning turn — at least for us in the profession — 23 Nobel Prize-winning economists, from Columbia University professor Joseph Stiglitz to Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s Daron Acemoglu, released a letter endorsing Kamala Harris for US president.

“Simply put, Harris’s policies will result in a stronger economic performance, with economic growth that is more robust, more sustainable, and more equitable,” the Nobel laureates wrote in the letter. Donald Trump’s policies, they added, would “lead to higher prices, larger deficits, and greater inequality.” As for Harris, they wrote that she “has emphasized policies that strengthen the middle class, enhance competition, and promote entrepreneurship. On issue after issue, Harris’s economic agenda will do far more than Donald Trump’s to increase the economic strength and well-being of our nation and its people.”

Individuals can struggle to sort out the nuance of their own economic experience over the past eight years in weighing Harris versus Trump, but professional economists of all stripes have little to be torn about. It’s not a toss-up: Trump’s policy agenda gives much for economists to condemn. Any one of these policies on their own would be enough to disqualify a candidate, but that Trump has proposed them all is a clear enough indicator of just how much the economy would be at risk if he were reelected.

Interfering in the Federal Reserve. Trump and his running mate, Ohio Senator JD Vance, have proposed ending the Fed’s independence and giving the president a say in such monetary policy as setting interest rates. Central bank independence is a foundational component of stable economies. Researchers have found a clear, causal relationship: the more independent the central bank, the lower the rates of inflation. Even when examining just the US, political pressure from the president raises prices.

Interfering in statistical agencies. The Trump administration interfered in the 2020 census by ending the count early and pressuring bureaucrats at the Census Bureau to change their methodology. Those workers, protected civil servants, resisted, as emails revealed by Freedom of Information Act requests show. But Trump has proposed replacing many civil servants with political appointees through Schedule F, a tactic he tried at the end of his presidency, and Republicans are already attacking the Bureau of Labor Statistics. At stake is the reliable reporting of economic data.

Excessive tariffs. Trump has advocated for a 20% import tax on all goods from all countries, but higher rates for China and cars from Mexico. The tariffs from Trump’s time in office are a good proving ground. Economists universally agree that tariffs increase prices for consumers because it’s domestic companies that are importing the goods that pay the tariffs and then attempt to pass those costs to consumers. As a result, tariffs have proven to shave growth off GDP.
The larger and broader tariffs are, the higher the prices for US consumers. History and the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act provide another warning: The most likely outcome would be retaliation against US exporters by our trade partners.

Mass deportation. Trump has promised the largest deportation in the history of the US, and Republicans rallied at their convention this summer by waiving signs that read “Mass Deportation Now!” Researchers at the center-left Brookings Institution estimate that more immigration than expected has been a windfall for the economy, propping up consumer demand and job growth. Further, deportation would hurt US-born workers, affecting critical industries such as child care and construction where immigrants
are employed and lowering aggregate demand.

Wider budget deficits. The federal government is running trillion-dollar deficits and the nonpartisan and nonprofit Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget determined that Trump’s policy proposals are twice as expensive as those from Harris. The vice president proposes less new spending than Trump and wants increases in tax revenue to pay for spending, which Trump does not. Additional pressure on fiscal health comes from Social Security, which doesn’t directly add to the deficit but Congress does owe the program a few trillion dollars, currently held in a trust fund. The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget found that Trump’s Social Security proposals would cause the program’s shortfall to swell by an additional $2 trillion and deplete the trust fund three years sooner than is currently projected in 2035.

In their letter, the Nobel laureates stressed the importance of the rule of law, economic certainty and political certainty, which they said are “among the most important determinants of economic success.” The fact that many of the CEOs who are making parlays to Trump are doing so out of concern for his open plans of retribution for enemies only proves the point of these high-minded economists.
 
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Carville calls Trump win ‘depressing’: ‘Tens of millions of people fell for this s‑‑‑’​



 
If this has shown the world anything it is how a fascist and propagandist can take over the minds of the populace and get themselves installed into positions of power. We need no longer look at the general population of Germany before WWII with a side-eye glance, as now we have been through it as well. No more need we ask "how could they ever support someone like that?" when that is exactly what we have done. Sad event, to be sure. We can only hope he doesn't try to enact every fascist thing he has promised. Or at least, we do not let him succeed. But he has made us the laughing stock of the developed world, as we allowed a convicted felon and rapist to be able to pardon himself so we basically show that our justice system is just for show and only holds the poor and weak to account. The rich and powerful need never fear. We are very nearly at the tipping point of being a full-on corporatocracy, and could easily see fascist ideas enacted as well. Dark day for America, no doubt.
 
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