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Stoked said:
There is actually a lot in this post I agree with. I knew you were not arguing for a full on gun ban by your earlier posts about "less guns" instead of no guns.

I think the full on love affair in some quarters for guns is weird as well. I wouldn't really call guns a negative thing but I can see your point and don't really oppose it enough to argue against it.

Only real thing I have a problem with is "however that is accomplished". There are certain methods I simply will not support. But yes, less guns would be a good thing I think.
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Good talk. I got no problem with anything in this post
Our beef has been squashed
 
Stoked said:
From what I remember these were citizen owned firearms. Not military, police or other federal and state agencies.
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OK, so, that would add another... what, 25 million? Probably more. But, OK, let's leave the professionals out of this.

As fish said, they would either remain out of sight or be eventually retrieved in one way or another.
 
Stoked said:
Only real thing I have a problem with is "however that is accomplished". There are certain methods I simply will not support. But yes, less guns would be a good thing I think.
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You're grossly exaggerating the possible resistance to this, beyond grumbling and threats, anyway. You're also grossly exaggerating the ability of anyone, in a modern world, to wage a war on the Government of the USA. And you just assumed that in my vision of an outright ban on guns, the police would raid people's houses looking for them. As Fish pointed out, it'd likely be enough to wait. They'd surface. Police stops, unrelated searches, stupid mistakes...people would give themselves away. Would you have some absolute wackos who'd be willing to get involved in shootouts with the FBI over guns in the forests of Idaho? Of course you would, but you can't go with the reasoning that a law should not be made because some people would not comply with it. That's true for all laws.
 
JimLes said:
You're grossly exaggerating the possible resistance to this, beyond grumbling and threats, anyway. You're also grossly exaggerating the ability of anyone, in a modern world, to wage a war on the Government of the USA. And you just assumed that in my vision of an outright ban on guns, the police would raid people's houses looking for them. As Fish pointed out, it'd likely be enough to wait. They'd surface. Police stops, unrelated searches, stupid mistakes...people would give themselves away. Would you have some absolute wackos who'd be willing to get involved in shootouts with the FBI over guns in the forests of Idaho? Of course you would, but you can't go with the reasoning that a law should not be made because some people would not comply with it. That's true for all laws.
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No offense, but as a foreigner to the USA you might not have the best insight on how the people here think. Obviously most will go along, but a strong portion of the NW, and the south (particularily Texas) would go down swinging.
 
JimLes said:
Why can't we do both simultaneously? Ban guns and educate people on why they're ruining the society.



Would this education start with the principle that guns are a bad thing? For all of us? Because if it doesn't, it's a waste of time. As long as people believe that guns are fun, like you do, these sort of situations will happen. If you're going to talk to kids about this kind of stuff, the way to go would be peace education. Violence IS wrong, even when it's necessary. It's still wrong. Guns are not cool, nor fun, nor is killing people or animals.

I really don't understand how anyone could live in a society where guns and violence are celebrated as cool and manly and then be shocked when someone really takes this to heart.
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You're a tad bit of an extremist here. I don't think anybody has said killing people is cool, or fun, or that they want to. People that think like that, they're not ok in the head. Have you had any experience with guns? Ever shot one? I'm just curious what your experience with them is, outside of what you hear on the news.
 
JimLes said:
Why can't we do both simultaneously? Ban guns and educate people on why they're ruining the society.



Would this education start with the principle that guns are a bad thing? For all of us? Because if it doesn't, it's a waste of time. As long as people believe that guns are fun, like you do, these sort of situations will happen. If you're going to talk to kids about this kind of stuff, the way to go would be peace education. Violence IS wrong, even when it's necessary. It's still wrong. Guns are not cool, nor fun, nor is killing people or animals.

I really don't understand how anyone could live in a society where guns and violence are celebrated as cool and manly and then be shocked when someone really takes this to heart.
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You're taking things out of context. What's cool is to be in the same circumstances to defend yourself against someone that has obtained a gun for evil purposes. Gun ownership should be looked at from a defensive perspective.
 
Howard said:
No offense, but as a foreigner to the USA you might not have the best insight on how the people here think. Obviously most will go along, but a strong portion of the NW, and the south (particularily Texas) would go down swinging.
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Would you take up arms against the government? If, say, the 2nd amendment was repealed, or, more likely, reinterpreted? Would you personally shoot police and/or military who were enforcing the law?
 
I think the steps that need to be taken in order to help stop things like this from happening lies largely at the feet of gun advocates and the NRA. The gun control lobby can only do so much to address all the issues we've discussed here. Many gun advocates agree with possible solutions like mental health advocacy, common sense gun laws, etc., but are totally unwilling to work with the other side, let alone bring their own plan to the table.

So, if you're going to argue for limited gun restrictions, and as an unintended consequence gun end up in the wrong hands, what are you going to do to help ensure the safety of those who are left vulnerable?

I see gun advocates talking big when it comes to the 2nd Amendment, but remember that **** ain't free and comes with consequences and responsibilities. So far, I haven't seen groups like the NRA address either.

If I'm wrong, please educate me.
 
gandalfe said:
Would you take up arms against the government? If, say, the 2nd amendment was repealed, or, more likely, reinterpreted? Would you personally shoot police and/or military who were enforcing the law?
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Not everyone in government would be for banning guns. It wouldn't be an all the People vs. all the Government thing. I could see people within the gov't turning against any attempt to ban guns in America. Don't be so simplistic.
 
Jamezz said:
You're taking things out of context. What's cool is to be in the same circumstances to defend yourself against someone that has obtained a gun for evil purposes. Gun ownership should be looked at from a defensive perspective.
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What percentage of gun owners use their guns to defend themselves though.

I never have. Sometimes you might even be better off not having a gun in situations where you think it's best to have one.
Say someone breaks into your home intending to rob you and he has a gun. You don't have one and you tell the robber to take what he wants and simply not hurt you or your family and then he does just that.
Now let's say you have a gun and you try to shoot the guy and he tries to shoot you. Maybe you get him, maybe you don't. Maybe your child or wife or yourself gets hit instead.

Maybe you would be better off just letting him steal some **** and then call the cops.


Same goes with alterations on the street. Sometimes it's best to not even have a gun to defend yourself. Some people might even get tempted to use their gun in a situation that they don't need to. Like a road rage incident that could end in a simple fistfight might get taken to a new extreme because someone felt the need to defend themselves with their gun
 
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