What's your explanation for early OKC success?

[Nate505]

https://www.slcdunk.com/2015/2/23/8...zz-rudy-gober-derrick-favors-fans-best-wishes

This article does a good job explaining why Enes Kanter might have gripes.

Not really. If that's the best defense of Kanter I feel comfortable in my opinion that he's a whiner.

If the best defense he has is that he struggled under Corbin, I get that. But the Jazz got rid of Corbin, thus making that point more moot.

This I especially don't buy:

After all, most missed it but Kanter was a designated scorer in this offense, and that’s one of the reasons why his assist numbers were low. When the ball worked it’s way to him it would have been silly for him to try to create something other than a shot, trying to Joe Ingles his way into more assists would be breaking plays. No one complains when a designated shooter like Steve Kerr or John Paxson shoots when they are open – but if a big does it people think he’s a black hole. Maybe Kanter was shooting and scoring so much because he’s one of the best scorers on this team, and it was part of the game plan? I think that’s what it was.

I don't think there are any designated scorers in Snyder's offense, though if there were I'd say Hayward is the first option. Still, no one complains when a Kerr shoots when he's wide open...but Kanter wasn't shooting when he was just wide open. He was just shooting. As a big he was shooting 49%. Not terrible, but not great (for a big anyway). I don't think people would complain as much if he was taking good shots, but many times he'd go right into a double team in the paint and try to score. And many times that failed.

 

[CAKAR]

^
AllThatAmar makes some wild leaps of logic.

He wrote about something I tried to tell all the time. If Kanter was not the 3rd Pick Utah wanted him to be, the FO also have something to do with it. FO also knows that they did something wrong, so they tradet Enes to a very good team, to really help his career.

Especially this part:


"It’s an old, dare I say it out-dated, idea about development I see so many people online champion.

" If player X wants it bad enough, works hard enough in practice, and does all the right things distraction free – then they’ll get the minutes. You gotta earn it."

That’s fine. It’s perfectly fine if we’re talking about players on equal footing – like three or four high school kids who all played two years of J.V. ball. Or, say, a group of NBA Rookies who all played three to four years of NCAA ball. Having the guys "earn their minutes" makes no sense when you have 27 year old Al Jefferson going up against 26 year old Paul Millsap going up against 20 year old Derrick Favors going up against 19 year old Enes Kanter.

Big Al skipped college and went to the NBA, and by this point (the 2011-2012 season) had already played 14,590 regular season minutes over 7 NBA seasons. That’s an average of 2,084.3 minutes per season. The team had previously signed and traded away Carlos Boozer, a multiple time All-Star, away for a trade exception that the team then used to get Big Al and his bloated contract out of Minnesota so they could free up more playing / development time for Kevin Love. Love is now one of the best Bigmen in the league and an Olympian. The Jazz hitched their wagon to Big Al, and there was no way a 19 year old rookie and a 20 year old 2nd year player were going to displace his minutes. They could not be earned.
Paul had played three season of NCAA ball, 3,240 minutes, and was drafted in the second round. He worked hard and earned his minutes in a less crowded front court with more movement (at times Jerry Sloan used both Andrei Kirilenko or Mehmet Okur off the bench). By the time Tyrone Corbin was in charge Paul had earned his right to his minutes, and sat upon 11,297 combined regular season and playoff minutes over six NBA seasons with the Jazz. Paul played an average of only 1,882.8 minutes per season. Paul had succeeded all the bigs who were in front of him as a rookie. I do not believe that minutes could have been earned away from Paul either.
Derrick Favors was the #3 draft pick by the New Jersey Nets, who then traded him. Players who get traded during their rookie seasons do not inherit a lot of stability. Favors played 444 minutes in a Jazz jersey before they drafted another dude who was taller than him, but less experienced, and younger, who played the same positions.
Enes Kanter was a teenaged foreign kid who needed as many minutes possible to get the experience needed to reach the potential the Jazz brass saw in him when they saw him pre-draft."

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

He is a desperate man right now in a contract year and only has 30 games to try and get that max. If he was truly as good as the Kanter fans are saying, we would have seen it by now. He always had the the talent, just never cared. IF he gets his contract history has shown players like him never sustain. Its not in his mental make up.

From multiple sources I've heard/read that Kanter worked hard, was dedicated and was showing improvement. I reject the argument that he didn't care. He had a number of games for the Jazz like he just had for OKC, so I don't get why one good game with OKC means that he now cares so much, while multiple similar games for the Jazz is dismissed with a wave of hand, "oh he didn't care when he was here." There's several other more plausible explanations in my mind to explain one game of high performance by Kanter at OKC, similarly if he keeps it up, I still see several other more plausible explanations than 'he didn't care.'

Personally, I don't blame Kanter one bit. Corbin never really gave him a fair shake and made him the whipping boy while greatly limiting his minutes, and then he sees the writing on the wall with Gobert. If I were him, I would have also wanted a trade. We can rag on him, or on his agent for what he/they did, but it worked. He's got traded to a title contender that is starting him and giving him starter minutes (for now at least) and he has so far performed very well. Good for him. Many us, ragged on Kanter all the time and wanted Gobert to start, now we got what we wanted, and we still rag on Kanter. I like Kanter and I hope he excels at OKC. At the same time, I like Gobert and I hope he is a key cog in the Jazz's long-term return to relevance.

 

[Sexual Favors]

There's a guy who actually would have a legit gripe if he said he wanted to be traded. He wasn't getting any PT this season so far.

What exactly are Kanter's gripes again. I'm really missing it. He started, got starters minutes. Perhaps he got a bit less because the Jazz are loaded at the front court, but that's life in the NBA, and it's not like he was never out there. Unless he's truly dominant, and he never showed that, that's how it will be if he plays on any team that's good.

Trust and scapegoating. He was mismanaged by Ty, then scapegoated in his third season so Ty could try to save his job. The media latched on to stats they barely understand and made it their talking point whenever his name was brought up. He could have 20/10 nights and the team would win, but he'd never be as good as Derrick or Rudy because the perception had been tarnished. He worked hard to improve his defense, and is actually really good at keeping his man in front of him, but all anyone would talk about was his PnR defense, which was made to seem worse because of how bad his perimeter counterparts were at it. Certain teammates seemed to be purposefully not passing to him in PnR, and would instead prefer to have their shots blocked than have him score. He had Rudy chomping at his heels, and the entire NBA fandom calling Kanter a scrub and demandng Gobert starts. It would be one thing if Enes was some scrub like Marvin Williams, but Enes himself is also 22 and a developing player with incredible amounts of untapped potential. We are still a young and dumb team, but Enes was painted as the dumbest and thus rarely allowed to close out games. The Jazz signed Trevor Booker, and got Novak , knowing they had three promising bigs still needing to develop, and Jeremy. And most importantly of all, he is an offensive big who has never played with a decent PG!!! Think about that last part. Defensive bigs **** Rudy and Derrick can still do quite a lot with crap PG's, but expecting an offensive one to thrive is nuts. The Mavs game was just the straw that broke the camel's back. That particular game, the team was actually competing when he was on the floor, but out of a determination to make Rudy and Derrick work, Enes was benched and forced to watch a blowout. The writing was on the wall--at best, he could hope for third fiddle, even if we were losing. Why should he have quit on himself? He no longer saw a fit, because the team was choosing not to include him.

 

[Nate505]

Oh, that's his excuse? His backcourt wasn't good enough? Why aren't Favors and Gobert whining for trades? Favors isn't an offensive big? The previous regime hated him? That regime is gone. Players not passing to him? He shot the ball a ton (oh, he certainly returned that favor too). The Dallas game was the final straw? It's not like he had a ton of straws on his back to begin with.

All those excuses are the sign of someone extremely mentally weak. It might get covered up on a good team like the Thunder, but once he has to become the man whatever team he is on will fail hard, unless he fixes that.

 

[CAKAR]

Trust and scapegoating. He was mismanaged by Ty, then scapegoated in his third season so Ty could try to save his job. The media latched on to stats they barely understand and made it their talking point whenever his name was brought up. He could have 20/10 nights and the team would win, but he'd never be as good as Derrick or Rudy because the perception had been tarnished. He worked hard to improve his defense, and is actually really good at keeping his man in front of him, but all anyone would talk about was his PnR defense, which was made to seem worse because of how bad his perimeter counterparts were at it. Certain teammates seemed to be purposefully not passing to him in PnR, and would instead prefer to have their shots blocked than have him score. He had Rudy chomping at his heels, and the entire NBA fandom calling Kanter a scrub and demandng Gobert starts. It would be one thing if Enes was some scrub like Marvin Williams, but Enes himself is also 22 and a developing player with incredible amounts of untapped potential. We are still a young and dumb team, but Enes was painted as the dumbest and thus rarely allowed to close out games. The Jazz signed Trevor Booker, and got Novak , knowing they had three promising bigs still needing to develop, and Jeremy. And most importantly of all, he is an offensive big who has never played with a decent PG!!! Think about that last part. Defensive bigs **** Rudy and Derrick can still do quite a lot with crap PG's, but expecting an offensive one to thrive is nuts. The Mavs game was just the straw that broke the camel's back. That particular game, the team was actually competing when he was on the floor, but out of a determination to make Rudy and Derrick work, Enes was benched and forced to watch a blowout. The writing was on the wall--at best, he could hope for third fiddle, even if we were losing. Why should he have quit on himself? He no longer saw a fit, because the team was choosing not to include him.

We are a team full of D-league guys, but Kanter was treated like it´s impossible to win with him on the floor. The team always was winning without him, because even if he played a great game, he almost never got the opportunity to close the game. He almost never was involved in wins, but getting garbage minutes always Utah was blown out.

You can not develop a player into a winning mentality like that.

 

[Stifle Tower]

So wait CAKAR, you're saying the Jazz should have played a 19-yr kid who had ZERO college experience more minutes over Big AL and Millsap? Enes can only complain a bit about his second year. Maybe they should have played him more and cut into Jefferson's minutes. But Utah 100% committed to Enes when the season ended. They told him he was going to start. They let Jefferson go without even considering giving him a contract.

AllThatAmar claims Utah wasn't committed to his development. That's just BS. They gave him every opportunity to go to P3, work with Malone, etc. And let's revisit the Jefferson situation. You can't tell me Kanter's offensive game, his footwork, isn't reminiscent of Big Al. I'll maintain letting Kanter learn under Big AL was more valuable than simply throwing Kanter out there as a raw player for 5-10 more minutes per game.

Jazz gave him the starter's job on a platter last season and he was HORRIBLE defensively. So he comes back this year, is still struggling defensively, but is getting 27 mins - AND STARTING - with Quin and the staff continuing to develop him. You can't argue with that; Ergul admitted they were happy with the current staff.

Enes has a right to be slightly upset over P/T during his 2nd season ONLY. But the Jazz made the move after the season to free up time. Problem solved. He was given the starting role in Year #3. I'd say that's a great timeline for someone who sat out a year. Maybe he should also blame the NCAA for retarding his development. Or maybe he should look in the mirror. At some point, Kanter has to take ownership for his effort on defense.

Even coming into this season he had a chance to put a stranglehold on a starting job. Force Favors to the bench if you're so damn good. But he didn't and still maintained he was the best player of his generation. Maybe he'll get there. Maybe he has fight that we just didn't see over the past 1 1/2 years. Jazz just didn't want to take the chance that he'd become another AK: a player who would just stop working when he got the big deal. So do you go with a much rawer Gobert who has improved astronomically in 1 1/2 years. Or do you trade Rudy and commit to Enes for $16M/per. Kanter knew what the answer was and so he demanded a trade.

 

[The Blue Elephant]

Oh, that's his excuse? His backcourt wasn't good enough? Why aren't Favors and Gobert whining for trades? Favors isn't an offensive big? The previous regime hated him? That regime is gone. Players not passing to him? He shot the ball a ton (oh, he certainly returned that favor too). The Dallas game was the final straw? It's not like he had a ton of straws on his back to begin with.

All those excuses are the sign of someone extremely mentally weak. It might get covered up on a good team like the Thunder, but once he has to become the man whatever team he is on will fail hard, unless he fixes that.

https://www.slcdunk.com/2015/2/23/8...zz-rudy-gober-derrick-favors-fans-best-wishes

This article really good at summing up how Kanter was managed.

 

[Nate505]

https://www.slcdunk.com/2015/2/23/8...zz-rudy-gober-derrick-favors-fans-best-wishes

This article really good at summing up how Kanter was managed.

You can say that as often as you want, it doesn't make it correct.

 

[Nate505]

We are a team full of D-league guys, but Kanter was treated like it´s impossible to win with him on the floor. The team always was winning without him, because even if he played a great game, he almost never got the opportunity to close the game. He almost never was involved in wins, but getting garbage minutes always Utah was blown out.

You can not develop a player into a winning mentality like that.

Is that true? I haven't rummaged thru the game logs, but I seem to remember him being out on the floor at the end of games.

According to the game logs he was in the last minutes of the Pelicans game, a game the Jazz won by 4 points.

 

[The Blue Elephant]

So wait CAKAR, you're saying the Jazz should have played a 19-yr kid who had ZERO college experience more minutes over Big AL and Millsap? Enes can only complain a bit about his second year. Maybe they should have played him more and cut into Jefferson's minutes. But Utah 100% committed to Enes when the season ended. They told him he was going to start. They let Jefferson go without even considering giving him a contract.

AllThatAmar claims Utah wasn't committed to his development. That's just BS. They gave him every opportunity to go to P3, work with Malone, etc. And let's revisit the Jefferson situation. You can't tell me Kanter's offensive game, his footwork, isn't reminiscent of Big Al. I'll maintain letting Kanter learn under Big AL was more valuable than simply throwing Kanter out there as a raw player for 5-10 more minutes per game.

Jazz gave him the starter's job on a platter last season and he was HORRIBLE defensively. So he comes back this year, is still struggling defensively, but is getting 27 mins - AND STARTING - with Quin and the staff continuing to develop him. You can't argue with that; Ergul admitted they were happy with the current staff.

Enes has a right to be slightly upset over P/T during his 2nd season ONLY. But the Jazz made the move after the season to free up time. Problem solved. He was given the starting role in Year #3. I'd say that's a great timeline for someone who sat out a year. Maybe he should also blame the NCAA for retarding his development. Or maybe he should look in the mirror. At some point, Kanter has to take ownership for his effort on defense.

Even coming into this season he had a chance to put a stranglehold on a starting job. Force Favors to the bench if you're so damn good. But he didn't and still maintained he was the best player of his generation. Maybe he'll get there. Maybe he has fight that we just didn't see over the past 1 1/2 years. Jazz just didn't want to take the chance that he'd become another AK: a player who would just stop working when he got the big deal. So do you go with a much rawer Gobert who has improved astronomically in 1 1/2 years. Or do you trade Rudy and commit to Enes for $16M/per. Kanter knew what the answer was and so he demanded a trade.

Enes Kanter is playing with PG's who shoot 36% or worse. Dante Exum has shot 21% last 10 games. He is playing with the worst pg's in the league. Trey Burke had one of his best games last game he has ever had. He got 19 points in 20 shots. He can't defend. Trey Burke literally is one of the worst pg's in the NBA no matter what aspect of the game you look at. Yet he is getting minutes to develop. The Utah Jazz just shouldn't have drafted Kanter and should have drafted Klay Thompson, or Kawhi Leonard. Even brandon knight potentially. Read the article I posted above I think it a great read by slcdunk

 

[Stifle Tower]

We are a team full of D-league guys, but Kanter was treated like it´s impossible to win with him on the floor. The team always was winning without him, because even if he played a great game, he almost never got the opportunity to close the game. He almost never was involved in wins, but getting garbage minutes always Utah was blown out.

You can not develop a player into a winning mentality like that.

Garbage minutes? The guy started and played 27/per. And that's BS about closing out games. He did early in the season and then Snyder would make defensive/offensive substitutions. There were many games Gobert would come in, Kanter would go out and then the reverse would happen if the clock was stopped for a Utah offensive possession.

All you Kanter lovers have YET to answer the one question I have repeatedly posed. If Corbn's coaching staff was so bad at developing players, how do you explain the amazing progress Hayward and Favors made. And even Gobert from Season #1 to the Summer League and World Cup. They all had the same coaches as Enes did.