Why doesn't Utah have a Lottery?

[Stoked]

The schools have needed air conditioners forever. This isn't some new development. Utah is among the last in the nation when it comes to spending on schools. If you want to raise taxes, raise them. It doesn't mean we can't have a lottery. But I'm sure if there was a statewide vote that said "lower taxes and legalize a lottery" or "raise taxes and keep lotteries illegal" the lottery would be legalized by a landslide. People might historically support a progressive tax, but people also historically (and currently) support lotteries in almost every state.

The economics of it right now say millions of dollars are leaving the state every year. It is all going to Idaho, Colorado, and Arizona. Those states get paid every time a Utah resident buys a lottery ticket there. They also withhold state (and federal) income tax from the big winnings. And they keep all of the unclaimed winnings (not big enough for someone to drive all the way there to claim).

It's not a theoretical "if we legalized a lottery and people played..." It's a "people are playing it right now so we might as well keep the money in this state."

Isn't that simply due the the large rnumber of children in Utah? I live in a southern Utah town and it has around 7 elementary schools. I lived in a town in Missippi around the same size and it had 1 elementary school. So Utah can be spending a crap load on schools but the dollar per child is crap.

Or does Utah spend less starting out?

 

[SaltyDawg]

Isn't that simply due the the large rnumber of children in Utah? I live in a southern Utah town and it has around 7 elementary schools. I lived in a town in Missippi around the same size and it had 1 elementary school. So Utah can be spending a crap load on schools but the dollar per child is crap.

Or does Utah spend less starting out?

I don't know why Utah is spending less. I'm sure the number of children is a big part of it. But the point is Utah needs all the help it can get when it comes to funding the schools. A state lottery would certainly help that situation.

 

[Stoked]

I don't know why Utah is spending less. I'm sure the number of children is a big part of it. But the point is Utah needs all the help it can get when it comes to funding the schools. A state lottery would certainly help that situation.

No I am all with you on this one. Education should be one of the primary concerns of any state. Having the extra revenue can only help.

I just wanted to know the total Utah spent on education compared to other states. Not $ per child.

 

[SaltyDawg]

No I am all with you on this one. Education should be one of the primary concerns of any state. Having the extra revenue can only help.

I just wanted to know the total Utah spent on education compared to other states. Not $ per child.

Yeah I don't know what the total is. Per child is the important one though. As the number of children increase, the total should increase proportionally.

 

[Stoked]

Yeah I don't know what the total is. Per child is the important one though. As the number of children increase, the total should increase proportionally.

Here is an interesting article I found. (this is for 2008)

https://www.nea.org/assets/docs/HE/NEA_Rankings_and_Estimates010711.pdf

Utah is the #1 spot in "PERCENTAGE OF RESIDENT POPULATION UNDER AGE 18, 2008"

That hurts but I agree that we need more money invested. Money alone will not fix the problem.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Here is an interesting article I found. (this is for 2008)

https://www.nea.org/assets/docs/HE/NEA_Rankings_and_Estimates010711.pdf

Utah is the #1 spot in "PERCENTAGE OF RESIDENT POPULATION UNDER AGE 18, 2008"

That hurts but I agree that we need more money invested. Money alone will not fix the problem.

So then Utah should also be in the #1 spot in "looking for revenue sources to fund education."

Money is the whole problem. We're among the last in the nation (and maybe even dead last) in education spending. Either we stop having so many kids or we spend more. Those are the only 2 solutions.

I was serious when I said that a lot of schools don't have air conditioners because they can't afford it. And this is in The Canyons school district, good neighborhoods. It's a money issue.

 

[Gameface]

That is only from Idaho. It doesn't factor in Arizona and Colorado. And it's also from 4 years ago. The article says that figure grows every year.

It may not seem like much to you. But we'll see how you feel when your kids are in middle school and high school and it's over 80 degrees inside because they can't afford to install air conditioners.

Since I philosophically don't support public schools I probably won't look in the same direction as you for the solution to that problem.

 

[franklin]

The schools have needed air conditioners forever. This isn't some new development. Utah is among the last in the nation when it comes to spending on schools. If you want to raise taxes, raise them.

Throwing money at the problem has been shown over and over to not solve issues with schooling. But that's off topic.

People might historically support a progressive tax, but people also historically (and currently) support lotteries in almost every state.

And yet Utah keeps coming out on top as the fiscally responsible one. But maybe those 43 broke lottery states have it all figured out.

The economics of it right now say millions of dollars are leaving the state every year. It is all going to Idaho, Colorado, and Arizona. Those states get paid every time a Utah resident buys a lottery ticket there. They also withhold state (and federal) income tax from the big winnings. And they keep all of the unclaimed winnings (not big enough for someone to drive all the way there to claim).

It's not zero sum because of the state's take, but when a Utahn wins the money comes to Utah... initially.
Then the winner pays 35% federal tax and blow the rest on out of state vacation homes, exotic foreign cars, and trips all over the globe. On the surface, that's a net drain on those economies.

The economics of it right now say millions of dollars are leaving the state every year. It is all going to Idaho, Colorado, and Arizona. Those states get paid every time a Utah resident buys a lottery ticket there. They also withhold state (and federal) income tax from the big winnings. And they keep all of the unclaimed winnings (not big enough for someone to drive all the way there to claim).

It's not a theoretical "if we legalized a lottery and people played..." It's a "people are playing it right now so we might as well keep the money in this state."

You're making a race to the bottom argument. This is akin to saying every state should not only cut corporate taxes lower than their neighbors to attract business, but start subsiding the largest ones to keep them here. Utah agreed to give special treatment to Goldman Sachs to keep them from going to "Idaho, Colorado, and Arizona".

 

[Gameface]

Per taxpayer Utah spends towards the top. Per student Utah spends towards the bottom.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Throwing money at the problem has been shown over and over to not solve issues with schooling. But that's off topic.

You're not going to put sure conditioners in the schools without paying somebody to do it. At some point, money IS the solution.

And yet Utah keeps coming out on top as the fiscally responsible one. But maybe those 43 broke lottery states have it all figured out.

Utah is not "on top." Utah is doing better than some of those states, and not as good as others.

It's not zero sum because of the state's take, but when a Utahn wins the money comes to Utah... initially.
Then the winner pays 35% federal tax and blow the rest on out of state vacation homes, exotic foreign cars, and trips all over the globe. On the surface, that's a net drain on those economies.

Not true. When a Utahn (or anyone else) runs the lottery, the state takes federal and state income taxes out before they even pay the winnings. The state takes their piece off the top, before the winner ever brings a dime back to Utah.

You're making a race to the bottom argument. This is akin to saying every state should not only cut corporate taxes lower than their neighbors to attract business, but start subsiding the largest ones to keep them here. Utah agreed to give special treatment to Goldman Sachs to keep them from going to "Idaho, Colorado, and Arizona".

No, I'm just saying your arguments against the lottery are mostly moot because Utahns are legally playing it right now. They're just giving all the benefits to other states, while accepting all the negatives.

 

[Stoked]

Per taxpayer Utah spends towards the top. Per student Utah spends towards the bottom.

That is eaxclty the stats I was looking for. Links?

 

[SaltyDawg]

Per taxpayer Utah spends towards the top. Per student Utah spends towards the bottom.

This is exactly why we need a lottery. Our taxes are already high enough.