The more things change, the more they stay the same

[Jazz4ever]

Jefferson isn't playing out of position. One of my concerns with him is that he doesn't have a position. A tweener. He's too slow to guard a lot of Cs, let alone PFs. But he's too short to be an imposing figure as a 5. He's played 5 almost exclusively for the previous 2 (and possibly 3) seasons.

Jefferson would play best next to another 4/5. Something the Jazz don't have.

Slow but size counts for a lot. Jefferson is big enough most PF's can't just flat out shoot over him like they do to Millsap. Yes a few PF's might give him problems that like to face up from 15", such as Bosh, but I'll take that tradeoff over being under sized 7 days a week and Sunday.

 

[LogGrad98]

I never said Brewer was an all star. I said Brewer was a mid level player. And to be fair, he is getting 4.7 mil this year. If he doesn't get hurt and miss the season, he is probably getting the mid level right now. He'll have his day.

On Millsap... He's averaging 16.7 and 7.7. But how often does he hit those numbers? It seems like he plays like a star 1 out of every 5 games, and plays like a scrub 4 out of 5 games.

Looking at Millsap's game log, he got double digit rebounds in 4 of the first 6 games. He has got double digit rebounds in only 6 of the 40 games since then.

I think we can all agree that the Utah Jazz need their starting power forward to get double digit rebounds more often than 6 out of 40 games. Especially when the Jazz are getting killed on the boards every night. It's no longer a slump at 40 games...

Incidentally, Chicago has the 4th best record in the NBA right now, and they're 3rd overall in rebounds per game, and 3rd overall in fewest points allowed- and this is with Noah out. I think it's safe to say Boozer wasn't the cause of all the Jazz problems and getting rid of him wasn't automatically the solution.

Don't drag me into this.

 

[jimmyjazz]

Jefferson isn't playing out of position. One of my concerns with him is that he doesn't have a position. A tweener. He's too slow to guard a lot of Cs, let alone PFs. But he's too short to be an imposing figure as a 5. He's played 5 almost exclusively for the previous 2 (and possibly 3) seasons.

Good point.

Another the thing with Jefferson with regard to rebounding is, along with the need to improve his reflex to box out, he's a bit slow to get off his feet to go for the rebound. Couple that with Sap just being undersized. They do get their share of rebounds somehow but they also give up more than a few to opposing teams.

 

[Inn Dawn]

Don't drag me into this.

lol

 

[cowhide]

The problem isn't Boozer over AJ. The problem is that Millsap use to come off the bench and provide the Jazz with scoring and energy. Now that he starts he is playing against better competition. I know he put up really good numbers when he replaced Boozer but it was for a small amount of time and he didnt have a player of AJ to compete with. Both AJ and Millsap basically play the same position. However, this issue is small compared to the fact that the Jazz let Matthews go and thought signing Bell would cover up their mistake of not offering Matthews a contract up front. Signing AK to his Max and then re-signing Okur for no apparent reason are the two biggest mistakes the organization have made. The real problem is the Jazz have not always done a good job of evaluting their own talent. For years they have overvalued AK, now it looks as though they might just let him expire and get nothing for him. Or they may just be dumb enough to offer him another contract for too much money.

 

[zman1527]

Slow but size counts for a lot. Jefferson is big enough most PF's can't just flat out shoot over him like they do to Millsap. Yes a few PF's might give him problems that like to face up from 15", such as Bosh, but I'll take that tradeoff over being under sized 7 days a week and Sunday.

And once again, old Jer's personnel selection comes in. He's got really 4 guys playing out of postion: AJ is a 4, Sap is a backup, AK is a 4, and Bell is done. Remember all the less-than-stellar C's Pops has played over the years instead of putting TD at the C? Who was it that killed the Jazz in one of their last playoff series, Oberto?

Sloan should start one of the 7 footers at C and get someone else on the floor for Bell to stretch the D. Heck, even Okur is not a real C but he is more serviceable there with his ability to force them to guard him out by the 3 line. But Jerry just loves to force round pegs into square holes, despite the results. Halfway throught the season and no adjustment.

 

[nickyjam21]

You cannot compare a Boozer with 5 years experience with the Jazz system and playing with a fully healthy Okur and a new Big Al playing out of position with an undersized frontcourt companion in Millsap and pathetic outside shooting from the wings. We lost more than just Boozer in the offseason, remember. The replacements at the wings havent been great exactly, compounded by Okur's injury.
And AK is as inconsistent as always

Exactly. This is Jefferson's first 45 games in the offense, and we're trying to say this was a bad move because he's not yet as comfortable as Bozzer was after 5 years. Give me a break! Our wings inability to make wide open shots is killing Al Jeff's production. Salty is accusing of everybody of being complainers while he continues to complain and attack what we got now. A nice way of arguing all sides...

 

[SaltyDawg]

Exactly. This is Jefferson's first 45 games in the offense, and we're trying to say this was a bad move because he's not yet as comfortable as Bozzer was after 5 years. Give me a break! Our wings inability to make wide open shots is killing Al Jeff's production. Salty is accusing of everybody of being complainers while he continues to complain and attack what we got now. A nice way of arguing all sides...

Where did I say anything about Jefferson not being as comfortable as Boozer? I said people are blasting him for doing the things they blasted Boozer for not doing.

To be clear, I think Jefferson and Boozer is way better than Jefferson and Millsap. And I think Williams, Mathews, CJ, Okur, Jefferson, or Williams, Mathews, CJ, AK, and Jefferson, is way better than Williams, Bell, AK, Millsap, Jefferson.

Oh yeah, and I don't think a 6'10" 280 pounder who has played center his whole career is undersized or playing out of position.

And if the guy is playing almost exclusively in the post, and getting a pretty consistent (and improving) 17, 9, and 2, he is not getting "physically dominated" at center.

So to be clear, I don't think Jefferson is the problem, I think Raja Bell, Millsap, and to a lesser extent Jerry Sloan are the problems.


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[Fishsticks]

It doe snot matter if he played C his whole career! He does not play like a center. He is a PF and damn good one. He is out of position and I dont care what dumb *** arguement you come up with to dispute otherwise.

 

[SaltyDawg]

It doe snot matter if he played C his whole career! He does not play like a center. He is a PF and damn good one. He is out of position and I dont care what dumb *** arguement you come up with to dispute otherwise.

Serious? I'm picturing a 4 year old screaming hysterically while jumping up and down when I read your post.

Jefferson is 6'10". That is a decent height for a center.

Jefferson is 280 pounds. That is pretty big for a center.

He plays almost exclusively in the post on offense and defense.

What about him or his game is more power forward than center?


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[Jazz4ever]

Serious? I'm picturing a 4 year old screaming hysterically while jumping up and down when I read your post.

Jefferson is 6'10". That is a decent height for a center.

Jefferson is 280 pounds. That is pretty big for a center.

He plays almost exclusively in the post on offense and defense.

What about him or his game is more power forward than center?


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6'10" is small for a center, most of the playoff teams out west are starting at least one 7 footer nowadays. Weight is important, but Jefferson isn't exactly a muscular 280. He cannot hold his ground like a Dwight Howard can. If he could work some of the flab into muscle he might be passable. But I digress, the only other playoff team to start a 6'10 center is New Orleans and Okafor is generally considered a good defensive player where Al is not.

Lakers: Bynum 7'1 Gasol 7'0
Portland: Pryz 7'0 Aldridge 6'11
San Antonio Duncan 6'11
Mavs: Chandler 7'1 Dirk 7'0
Thunder: Kristic 7'0 Ibaka 6'10
Nuggets: Nene 6'11
Hornets: Okafor 6'10

If the Jazz had another 6'10 player to play at PF they might be alright, but Millsap and Jefferson cannot be played together. The situation is difficult, but I think Millsap must be traded and Jefferson moved to PF. The Jazz could get a very good SG for Millsap, at least Kevin Martin quality.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Serious? I'm picturing a 4 year old screaming hysterically while jumping up and down when I read your post.

Jefferson is 6'10". That is a decent height for a center.

Jefferson is 280 pounds. That is pretty big for a center.

He plays almost exclusively in the post on offense and defense.

What about him or his game is more power forward than center?


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I love how people throw numbers out there like they're in a vacuum. Is Jefferson 6'10"? Yes, does he play like he's 6'10"? No.

GVC and others have showed enough stats on this board that demonstrate how poorly we play with Jeff on the court compared to Millsap. It's not even close.