Lowe: Gobert needs a post game for the Jazz to contend

[Flc]

That isn't a direct quote, but it's the logical inference you can make from Lowe's recent Grantland piece, which you can find here: https://grantland.com/the-triangle/...he-nba-post-up-game-to-bring-you-its-rebirth/

The reference to Gobert is buried in the article, which also talks about the importance of Wes Matthews in the Deron-era Jazz. Really great piece overall, but because the Jazz references aren't part of the headline, wanted to flag it so that you all could be sure to check it out.

Here's the segment on Gobert, but it really requires reading the entire article for the necessary context:

Coaches are getting smarter about exploiting bigs who can’t post up, especially in the playoffs. More coaches go small and send an extra shooter onto the floor, the second they see an opposing big who can’t hurt smaller defenders on the block. A few coaches dipped into small ball against Rudy Gobert late in the season, yanking the French Rejection out of his lair near the rim. The Heat in both Finals series against San Antonio dared Tiago Splitter to post up smaller players.

 

[zman1527]

That isn't a direct quote, but it's the logical inference you can make from Lowe's recent Grantland piece, which you can find here: https://grantland.com/the-triangle/...he-nba-post-up-game-to-bring-you-its-rebirth/

The reference to Gobert is buried in the article, which also talks about the importance of Wes Matthews in the Deron-era Jazz. Really great piece overall, but because the Jazz references aren't part of the headline, wanted to flag it so that you all could be sure to check it out.

Here's the segment on Gobert, but it really requires reading the entire article for the necessary context:

Well, the fundamental issue is that Rudy has to make them pay if they go small ball in one way or another. Post up would be great and the most direct way to do it. There may be others: alley oops, offensive rebounding, controlling the lane. It is definitely an issue though. Can you win these days by going big? In the era of the 3 ball?

 

[Stoked]

Well, the fundamental issue is that Rudy has to make them pay if they go small ball in one way or another. Post up would be great and the most direct way to do it. There may be others: alley oops, offensive rebounding, controlling the lane. It is definitely an issue though. Can you win these days by going big? In the era of the 3 ball?

Hand strength for catching passes when rolling to the basket, that hook and maybe a J to the FT line. Solved.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Well, the fundamental issue is that Rudy has to make them pay if they go small ball in one way or another. Post up would be great and the most direct way to do it. There may be others: alley oops, offensive rebounding, controlling the lane. It is definitely an issue though. Can you win these days by going big? In the era of the 3 ball?

Great post. I remember the series with GS years ago. In the first round Dallas played their style and lost. We did our thing and lived with the 3s and crushed them on the offensive glass. We ended up putting them away.

This is what Gobert has a better chance of doing than posting up guys.

 

[Flc]

Well, the fundamental issue is that Rudy has to make them pay if they go small ball in one way or another. Post up would be great and the most direct way to do it. There may be others: alley oops, offensive rebounding, controlling the lane. It is definitely an issue though. Can you win these days by going big? In the era of the 3 ball?

I think you can, but it's going to depend on a couple of factors:

1. Rudy needs strength to get the exact position he wants in the post. Even against shorter, burlier defenders he can struggle to get the position he wants.
2. Rudy needs a couple of back to the basket short-range moves that will draw double teams. He's a strong enough passer that just having the threat will be enough.
3. The longer Favors can extend his range, the better. If he can get Aldridge-level efficient on the top of the post/mid-range J, that may be enough - but the three pointer would be helpful.
4. Dante needs to be enough of a drive-and-finish threat to draw double teams so he can pass out. He certainly has the vision to do that.
5. Dante needs to get more efficient on his open 3-pointers - and that's something, based on in-season development last year, that I see definitely happening.

If those five things happen, you'll have three shooters in Dante, Hayward, and Hood/Burks who are converting efficiently on open 3 pointers and who will each demand double teams in drives. Rudy and Favors will both demand double teams whenever they get the ball. It would, frankly, be a fantastic offense since each player would have to be respected.

The concern over a bigger line-up is more on the defensive end, but I'm less worried about that, mainly because:

1. The length we have at every position means that Snyder could have the team switch every PNR if the opposing team goes small, without much of a need to double.
2. Exum and Gobert's recovery time means that even if we aren't switching on PNR, it will be difficult for offenses to get the shot they want off us.
3. Favors' defensive mobility allows him to guard 3s and 4s on the perimeter effectively.
4. Small ball offenses rely on drive-and-kick, and Gobert's length makes the "drive and finish" option inefficient. On most possessions, X, Favs, Hood/Burks, and Hayward can hug their men on the perimeter and look to cut off passing lanes while Gobert eats anyone who gets into the paint.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Id rather have him focus on making good rim runs after setting the pick and offensive rebounding. He will get shoved out of position in the post. He's too light and his center of gravity is too high. I think he can actually develop a decent 15 footer like horford has done as well.

 

[zman1527]

I think you can, but it's going to depend on a couple of factors:

1. Rudy needs strength to get the exact position he wants in the post. Even against shorter, burlier defenders he can struggle to get the position he wants.
2. Rudy needs a couple of back to the basket short-range moves that will draw double teams. He's a strong enough passer that just having the threat will be enough.
3. The longer Favors can extend his range, the better. If he can get Aldridge-level efficient on the top of the post/mid-range J, that may be enough - but the three pointer would be helpful.
4. Dante needs to be enough of a drive-and-finish threat to draw double teams so he can pass out. He certainly has the vision to do that.
5. Dante needs to get more efficient on his open 3-pointers - and that's something, based on in-season development last year, that I see definitely happening.

If those five things happen, you'll have three shooters in Dante, Hayward, and Hood/Burks who are converting efficiently on open 3 pointers and who will each demand double teams in drives. Rudy and Favors will both demand double teams whenever they get the ball. It would, frankly, be a fantastic offense since each player would have to be respected.

The concern over a bigger line-up is more on the defensive end, but I'm less worried about that, mainly because:

1. The length we have at every position means that Snyder could have the team switch every PNR if the opposing team goes small, without much of a need to double.
2. Exum and Gobert's recovery time means that even if we aren't switching on PNR, it will be difficult for offenses to get the shot they want off us.
3. Favors' defensive mobility allows him to guard 3s and 4s on the perimeter effectively.
4. Small ball offenses rely on drive-and-kick, and Gobert's length makes the "drive and finish" option inefficient. On most possessions, X, Favs, Hood/Burks, and Hayward can hug their men on the perimeter and look to cut off passing lanes while Gobert eats anyone who gets into the paint.

Nice post, but if we could do all that they will just hand us the trophy at the start of the year. As posted above, Rudy will always have trouble getting position, and Favs ain't gonna become the best outside shooting big man in the game, aka LMA, nor is he gonna shoot 3s. Just ain't gonna happen.

It is worrying to watch the winning teams not play their big centers much: Cavs and Ws are playing a lot without Bogut and Mozgov. Does the 3 point shot now doom our philosophy? Yes, one hope is that Rudy takes the drive of the drive and kick away. Is that enough? Are offensive rebounds enough? How does he deal with face guarding on those?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Nice post, but if we could do all that they will just hand us the trophy at the start of the year. As posted above, Rudy will always have trouble getting position, and Favs ain't gonna become the best outside shooting big man in the game, aka LMA, nor is he gonna shoot 3s. Just ain't gonna happen.

It is worrying to watch the winning teams not play their big centers much: Cavs and Ws are playing a lot without Bogut and Mozgov. Does the 3 point shot now doom our philosophy? Yes, one hope is that Rudy takes the drive of the drive and kick away. Is that enough? Are offensive rebounds enough? How does he deal with face guarding on those?

I wouldn't worry much. Bogut hasn't played as much partly because of foul trouble. He's not that far off his season average. When he isn't in Ezeli has been for the most part. The Hawks got pounded in part because they don't have rim protection and have been getting beat on the boards. Mozgov has been playing decent minutes too... I think Thompson is a better matchup with Horford and they wanted to have Lebron at the 4.

We can't have it all. I'm comfortable with our lock down the paint identity. We need some more shooting and creation from the perimeter guys. I'd focus on making Rudy better at what he does well on offense and not worry about post offense really at all.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I wouldn't worry much. Bogut hasn't played as much partly because of foul trouble. He's not that far off his season average. When he isn't in Ezeli has been for the most part. The Hawks got pounded in part because they don't have rim protection and have been getting beat on the boards. Mozgov has been playing decent minutes too... I think Thompson is a better matchup with Horford and they wanted to have Lebron at the 4.

We can't have it all. I'm comfortable with our lock down the paint identity. We need some more shooting and creation from the perimeter guys. I'd focus on making Rudy better at what he does well on offense and not worry about post offense really at all.

I'm not sure you really know what the point of the article was. The point was that playing in the post is more important in keeping defenses honest than deliberately and methodically running your offense through it. Nobody on earth is suggesting that Gobert needs to become, could become, or maybe even should become Hakeem.

The article is dead on (and we/I have discussed this before). If Gobert can't make teams pay for putting their Harrison Barnes on him and dragging a big out of the paint defensively, then that's a **** up and should be addressed. Again, we're not talking about running post-ups for Gobert as a bread and butter play. Just talking about being able to take advantage of a clear physical mismatch. It's a big deal.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Hand strength for catching passes when rolling to the basket, that hook and maybe a J to the FT line. Solved.

What does any of that (besides maybe that vague "that hook") have to do - specifically - with imposing a physical advantage over a defense?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

What does any of that (besides maybe that vague "that hook") have to do - specifically - with imposing a physical advantage over a defense?

Well the "hands" part would help him catch lobs and finish in traffic/cntact over smaller/stronger defenders who are going to be swiping at the ball. That is definitely a thing that would help.

Also believe "taht hook" is a reference to his left hand hook shot that he prefers even though he is right handed.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Nice post, but if we could do all that they will just hand us the trophy at the start of the year. As posted above, Rudy will always have trouble getting position, and Favs ain't gonna become the best outside shooting big man in the game, aka LMA, nor is he gonna shoot 3s. Just ain't gonna happen.

It is worrying to watch the winning teams not play their big centers much: Cavs and Ws are playing a lot without Bogut and Mozgov. Does the 3 point shot now doom our philosophy? Yes, one hope is that Rudy takes the drive of the drive and kick away. Is that enough? Are offensive rebounds enough? How does he deal with face guarding on those?

That's another thing: if a team decides that they have to faceguard to prevent entry passes, that creates a ****ing mountain of offensive rebounding opportunities. A team would never do that if they can just throw some SF on Gobert and he's completely impotent in exploiting that in the post.

 

[Stoked]

What does any of that (besides maybe that vague "that hook") have to do - specifically - with imposing a physical advantage over a defense?

The main point I took from it was that Gobert needs to be able to make a team pay on O and prevent a small lineup. A post up game is not the only way to do that. He has another physical advantage, his height and length.

If he developed what I stated the opposing team would need to play a bigger player on him.

Yes the hands part is about catching the ball, and maintaining posession, as he cuts to the basket off a pick and is in traffic.

The "taht hook" (eh, it happens) is simply the hook shot he started using as the season wore on.

The three things I listed come from his current game or areas he shows promise in. It is not changing that much about him really. He is already developing a hook shot, he often loses the ball once he has it in traffic due to being stripped and his FT% and height give me hope that he can have a decent FG% within 10 feet.

 

[zman1527]

That's another thing: if a team decides that they have to faceguard to prevent entry passes, that creates a ****ing mountain of offensive rebounding opportunities. A team would never do that if they can just throw some SF on Gobert and he's completely impotent in exploiting that in the post.

Sorry, I was not clear. I meant face guarding on rebounds. They can and will do that. Should open things up for our other big that way though.

This is going to be interesting to watch. Quin and company will have some tricks up their sleeves. But can that make up for a Lebron/Curry/Harden? Jazz still don't have "that guy" and it still looks like a big deal. Atlanta was great in the season, but has been shown up in the PO.

 

[zman1527]

Yes the hands part is about catching the ball, and maintaining posession, as he cuts to the basket off a pick and is in traffic.

I have not seen that problem with Rudy: he catches the ball perfectly well. Getting stripped I think has less to do with hand strength that it does with his length. At his height and length when he holds the ball in front of him in a normal manner, it is very available to anyone to take a swipe at: his arms stick out about 10 feet and the ball is at chest height on most guys. Maybe more important to work on ball position than on strength.

Gonna be interesting to watch this team develop in the playoffs the next few years (I hope!).

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm not sure you really know what the point of the article was. The point was that playing in the post is more important in keeping defenses honest than deliberately and methodically running your offense through it. Nobody on earth is suggesting that Gobert needs to become, could become, or maybe even should become Hakeem.

The article is dead on (and we/I have discussed this before). If Gobert can't make teams pay for putting their Harrison Barnes on him and dragging a big out of the paint defensively, then that's a **** up and should be addressed. Again, we're not talking about running post-ups for Gobert as a bread and butter play. Just talking about being able to take advantage of a clear physical mismatch. It's a big deal.

Huh... People were saying he should work on his post game and I was like nah he's more likely to be able to take advantage of a smaller player by punishing them on the offensive glass. I didn't address them dragging Gobert out because that is another issue that wasn't being discussed ATM. Other posters were indeed talking about him working on a post game.

The other bigs in the playoffs (mozgov, Bogut, Thompson) have not been posting up at all and they are still net positives and are taking advantage if getting rebounds. I'm just not sure where I missed the point.

 

[NAOS]

I'm like 1000 X more stressed about Favors learning to be better in the post. Even after the Corbin years....

 

[MT Steve]

Our head coach is a genius and Rudy is a solid passer, has high bball IQ, and above all has the drive to get better.

I'm optimistic.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

I don't worry about Rudy. He'll either develop a respectable post game or if he never gets there, he'll kill em on the offensive boards when they go small.

 

[Joncolton]

I don't worry about Rudy. He'll either develop a respectable post game or if he never gets there, he'll kill em on the offensive boards when they go small.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgtFt9KQdgU