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She was born that way

Gender is a functional role. It delineates jobs and expectations of individuals within a society. Jobs meaning societal functions (can get more into it if you really want to). Gender in society exists as a mechanic to the success of the society as a whole.

Race is a differentiating concept, a categorical role. Meant to separate. Race is more used as an ancestral idea. More of a diachronic thing while gender is synchronic.



They're just way too different of concepts to broadly say because of one instance regarding one of the concepts that it can brought over to the other. Just way too different.

Curious to read the responses to this one


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Among the most off-base, butt-hurt, categorically false, and hilarious posts I have seen on the JFC. Not even gonna waste my time bothering with this one.

Hey if you can't refute, just throw around some "butt-hurts". Pretty standard m.o. actually.
 
Gender is a functional role. It delineates jobs and expectations of individuals within a society. Jobs meaning societal functions (can get more into it if you really want to). Gender in society exists as a mechanic to the success of the society as a whole.

Race is a differentiating concept, a categorical role. Meant to separate. Race is more used as an ancestral idea. More of a diachronic thing while gender is synchronic.



They're just way too different of concepts to broadly say because of one instance regarding one of the concepts that it can brought over to the other. Just way too different.

So what you are saying is, race should go away, but gender serves a purpose. Then I guess this woman is a hero.

Also are you saying society historically has never used gender as a differentiating concept? Hundreds of years of women not voting would tend to disagree, among other many glaring examples to the contrary.
 
and yet people have suffered for centuries in your country (and mine) for the ability to maintain cultural pride, identity, freedom, and live without persecution. The construction of the black community in America is what enabled the minority to find motivation to live despite the abhorring conditions that they lived in relative to their white counterparts. The symbols, identities, and culture of the black community is sacred to them-- yet it continues to be appropriated from their white fellow Americans to this day. This persistent appropriation has the ability to collapse and dilute the very sacredness of their culture and community-- something that could easily be construed as covert cultural genocide. The very existence of 'black culture' immediately conjuring images of Hip Hop, violence, and inner-cities is representative of how white people have skewed the perceptions of what the multifaceted black community really is.

This long-standing history of cultural disrespect, cultural appropriation, and ignorance from White Americans is what makes so many people worldwide very discomforted by a white woman claiming that she is 'black'. While race is a social construct, and culture is a social construct, these constructs are incredibly significant to these cultural groups, and we both live in countries that enable cultural groups the right to maintaining their beliefs and identities free of persecution. She has a right to claim that she's black-- but she is vey deserving of the harsh backlash coming her way, as it's an incredibly sensitive issue when considering the backdrop of rampant cultural appropriation that happens in the black community. Many white people who idealize themselves with the black community are doing it in a skewed way, and undertake ideals often in conflict with the community at large-- therefore appropriating it.


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now find me an analogous circumstance in gender, with an issue like this.

I'll give you a hint-- there isn't. Thus, the comparisons between gender and race simply need to stop. There is no history of tragedies in America surrounding 'gender-cide', or the disallowance of women being able to practice their identities of women. Unfortunately, this is the case with certain cultural groups, and the appropriation of said groups is still ongoing.

Where did I say anything about persecution? If you want to argue that straw man you go ahead. I was just stating that there is at least a biological reason for gender that doesn't exist or is not defined for race. So why can someone choose their gender but not their race?

And why base those choices on history? Historically gays were persecuted as well, but we do not limit their future choices, nor limit inclusion in this group based on that. This woman is not persecuting blacks. In fact she was accepted by the preeminent black organization as a spokesperson. I still see no reason why she cannot choose to be black but Jenner can choose to be a woman.

Lastly are you saying that gender is not "incredibly significant" to any cultures? If not this seems pretty arbitrary.
 
Curious to read the responses to this one


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I mean, if you want to discuss the merits on this particular case, that's fine. It's not something I can remember coming during my schooling, but keep it on the racial issue. Gender is too different a concept.

For this case personally, I have difficulties relating since I've been trained on not looking at race biologically. I suppose I would be considered "white" by social conventions, but I wouldn't ever think of myself that way. I think of myself as German ancestry with Native American mixed in (though I never would consider myself culturally connected to any of the tribes I have ancestry in). Could never think myself as black, Asian (or for racial terminology, is yellow the more accurate term?), Native American (red?) or any other "race." since it's not definable biologically and ethnicity is a better descriptor.
 
So what you are saying is, race should go away, but gender serves a purpose. Then I guess this woman is a hero.

Also are you saying society historically has never used gender as a differentiating concept? Hundreds of years of women not voting would tend to disagree, among other many glaring examples to the contrary.

We're talking socially dividing. Can't have have societies divided based on gender. Can have societies divided based on its description of race. Gender only exists within a society.
 
I mean, if you want to discuss the merits on this particular case, that's fine. It's not something I can remember coming during my schooling, but keep it on the racial issue. Gender is too different a concept.

For this case personally, I have difficulties relating since I've been trained on not looking at race biologically. I suppose I would be considered "white" by social conventions, but I wouldn't ever think of myself that way. I think of myself as German ancestry with Native American mixed in (though I never would consider myself culturally connected to any of the tribes I have ancestry in). Could never think myself as black, Asian (or for racial terminology, is yellow the more accurate term?), Native American (red?) or any other "race." since it's not definable biologically and ethnicity is a better descriptor.

What did you mark on the census, provided you filled it out? Or what would you mark on the census?

(for the record, you can choose anything you want on the census)
 
We're talking socially dividing. Can't have have societies divided based on gender. Can have societies divided based on its description of race. Gender only exists within a society.

Now you are talking physical segregation. Yes that is very difficult along gender lines. Now if you are talking ideologically or even along the lines of personal rights and freedoms there have been plenty of divisions along gender lines. Have you ever looked much into the history of women's rights?
 
What did you mark on the census, provided you filled it out? Or what would you mark on the census?

(for the record, you can choose anything you want on the census)

I choose white, because that's the societal norm, and I don't care much otherwise.

I even choose "male" when asking for gender, even though male isn't a gender. As an aside I think many forms that have gender instead of sex choose gender because sex is a DIRTY word for people, which I find amusing.
 
Now you are talking physical segregation. Yes that is very difficult along gender lines. Now if you are talking ideologically or even along the lines of personal rights and freedoms there have been plenty of divisions along gender lines. Have you ever looked much into the history of women's rights?

For this topic, I'm not concerned about societal discrimination based on gender and race since I don't find it very relevant to whether racial and gender parallel issues can be compared. I tend to look more broadly on these topics.
 
So Dala, are we allowed to take anything from other cultures? And why or why not? And if yes, then what's the line where we stop? What can be taken and what can't?

Personally I feel like the melting pot idea works the best, and it seems like you don't...so why not?

I'm also curious as to how you feel about people dressing up like Mormons for Halloween? How about a catholic priest? Hell, what did you think of the movie White Chicks where two black men go white face and act in the typical culture of a privileged white girl? Should that be forbidden?
 
For this topic, I'm not concerned about societal discrimination based on gender and race since I don't find it very relevant to whether racial and gender parallel issues can be compared. I tend to look more broadly on these topics.

But in this instance, in this thread in particular, we are looking at something very specific: can a person choose their race the same as another can choose their gender. I haven't seen any particularly moving arguments that this is not a valid question, nor that we cannot simply answer this question with a resounding "yes". I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
 
Let me first share the similarities that I see.

I see two people that have identity issues. I see people imposing on these people their feelings about what is moral or offensive and criticizing them on that basis without exercising the slightest attempt at understanding. Having a self-identity that is other than the one a person is 'supposed' to have is (imo) one of the most difficult things that a person may have to deal with.
I believe that who we are is sacred. When we as a society restrict or denigrate a persons identity we not only attack them on a level that is profoundly hurtful but we also attack the flowering of our society and culture. We affect every young person that may feel similarly imparting on them a sense of self loathing.
It is tempting when the 'group' is in a frenzy to pile on for the sake of an easy punchline or to satisfy a sense of self righteousness. We all do it but it is something that I think we should at least try to avoid.
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and yet people have suffered for centuries in your country (and mine) for the ability to maintain cultural pride, identity, freedom, and live without persecution. The construction of the black community in America is what enabled the minority to find motivation to live despite the abhorring conditions that they lived in relative to their white counterparts. The symbols, identities, and culture of the black community is sacred to them-- yet it continues to be appropriated from their white fellow Americans to this day. This persistent appropriation has the ability to collapse and dilute the very sacredness of their culture and community-- something that could easily be construed as covert cultural genocide. The very existence of 'black culture' immediately conjuring images of Hip Hop, violence, and inner-cities is representative of how white people have skewed the perceptions of what the multifaceted black community really is.

This long-standing history of cultural disrespect, cultural appropriation, and ignorance from White Americans is what makes so many people worldwide very discomforted by a white woman claiming that she is 'black'. While race is a social construct, and culture is a social construct, these constructs are incredibly significant to these cultural groups, and we both live in countries that enable cultural groups the right to maintaining their beliefs and identities free of persecution. She has a right to claim that she's black-- but she is vey deserving of the harsh backlash coming her way, as it's an incredibly sensitive issue when considering the backdrop of rampant cultural appropriation that happens in the black community. Many white people who idealize themselves with the black community are doing it in a skewed way, and undertake ideals often in conflict with the community at large-- therefore appropriating it.


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now find me an analogous circumstance in gender, with an issue like this.

I'll give you a hint-- there isn't. Thus, the comparisons between gender and race simply need to stop. There is no history of tragedies in America surrounding 'gender-cide', or the disallowance of women being able to practice their identities of women. Unfortunately, this is the case with certain cultural groups, and the appropriation of said groups is still ongoing.
This may be way off base but here it is anyway.
Your inability to identify what you mean by black culture and your continuing return to issues of racial disenfranchisement and persecution makes me think that maybe you are not speaking of black culture per se. You seem to be speaking of the sense of community that blacks seem to have developed in response to being treated as other than and lesser than by society at large. If this is indeed what you are talking about I can see no way that this sense of community can remain unaffected by the growing acceptance of blacks as equal individuals in society. Some tragedies, like the loss of a sense of community, are ushered in by positive developments.
I find it hard to swallow that Dolezal was appropriating anything for whites as she tried to pass herself off as black. This is certainly not the same situation as whites appropriating the blues(I know another example of music)for themselves. Dolezal wanted to be adopted by a segment of our society she wasn't trying to steal from it.
 
Dala where I have a problem is the societal injustices that women have and continue to suffer. They are as historic as any other groups sufferings. They have at many points in time been nothing more than property. Sound familiar? At best one could argue that blacks have had more recent sufferings than women on a comparative scale in American culture. (for example: women were not slaves because they were women while blacks were slaves because they were black) But historically the suffering and oppression is clearly there.

So how is Caitlyn Jenner not insulting that history and oppression if this woman is insulting black history and opression?

I get that some people may be offended by one or both and that's ok, but it does not mean that she cannot do so and if we accept one we should accept the other. All just IMO.
 
Other than just saying "nuh-uh" can you actually provide any information or an actual viewpoint to support this assertion?


edit: as I think about it, in a way you are completely correct. Race is FAR more fluid than gender. Gender, whatever the social norm, at least has a basis in actual genes that have been fully identified if not fully understood. Whereas race cannot be traced to anything as solid as a set of genes or chromosomes. No one can say that this set of genes means you are black and this set means you are white. So race is far more likely to be a fluid concept than gender would be.

Did they fire you from your job yet? ;)


Among the most off-base, butt-hurt, categorically false, and hilarious posts I have seen on the JFC. Not even gonna waste my time bothering with this one.

Because you're completely oblivious to anything poli-sci and cannot stand not knee-jerk responding out of your pseudo-intellect/ideological character?

Side notte: I finally figured out what your childish problem with and constant harassing of NAOS was all about. Pretty funny.
 
https://news.yahoo.com/dolezal-kareem-abdul-jabbar-let-her-be-black-132108769.html

NBA Hall of Famer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar defended Dolezal.

“Does it really matter whether Rachel Dolezal is black or white?” Abdul-Jabbar wrote in an online column for Time magazine:


You can’t deny that Dolezal has proven herself a fierce and unrelenting champion for African-Americans politically and culturally. Perhaps some of this sensitivity comes from her adoptive black siblings. Whatever the reason, she has been fighting the fight for several years and seemingly doing a first-rate job. Not only has she led her local chapter of the NAACP, she teaches classes related to African-American culture at Eastern Washington University and is chairwoman of a police oversight committee monitoring fairness in police activities. Bottom line: The black community is better off because of her efforts.

He added: “Let’s give her a Bill Clinton Get Out of Jail Free card on this one (#Ididnothavesex) and let her get back to doing what she clearly does exceptionally well — making America more American.”

Montel Williams, the former daytime talk-show host and father of four biracial children, slammed Dolezal’s deception.

“The truth is she lied,” Williams wrote in a Facebook post. “I hope she gets the help she so clearly needs. This isn’t trans-race as much as it’s sans-honesty.”

He elaborated in a guest column published by TVNewser.com:


Ex-NAACP Leader Rachel Dolezal: I Identify as blac …Play videoEx-NAACP Leader Rachel Dolezal: I Identify as blac …
While she was living as white, Dolezal sued Howard University for discrimination based on the fact she was a white pregnant woman. Then while she was living as black, she reported numerous hate crimes which law enforcement believes may have been fabricated. She’s been flip-flopping her race and fabricating bias in every identity she chooses. And yet instead of asking “Have you been dishonest?” Today preferred to focus on, “What race are you today?” That’s like Wells Fargo asking a bank robber, “Are you withdrawing or depositing?”

“My kids could identify as white, black or biracial and be honest in doing so,” Williams added. “I think people should have some freedom of self-identification, provided that identification is built on a platform of honesty.”
 
"Race and gender have a lot in common in our culture. Both are socially constructed categories that often determine how individuals are viewed and treated by others and where each person falls in a rigid and oppressive hierarchy. Both are constructed on top of biological markers that are observable in infancy. Because of this, they both tend to be seen as clearly defined and immutable, in spite of the fact that there are individuals (for example, black Americans light enough to “pass” as white and people with intersex conditions) who don’t fit within the pre-existing categories. Historically, race and gender hierarchies were even more rigidly enforced than they are now, leading to decades of struggle by those on the bottom to gain the rights and privileges they’d long been excluded from.

In infancy, Dolezal and Jenner were each assigned to a high-status race and gender category, respectively. Both subsequently altered their appearances and sought entry into a different, lower-status category. The discomfort and anger some people who were born black or female feel toward each of them comes from a similar place—to those who never had a choice of whether to grow up being discriminated against and seen as less than, it feels appropriative when a privileged person claims that status in adulthood. There’s no procedure that could give Caitlyn Jenner a girlhood of athletic options limited by her gender, and no hairstyle will ever result in Rachel Dolezal’s grade school teachers lowering their academic expectations for her based on her skin color."
https://www.slate.com/blogs/outward...ransgender_is_different_from_transracial.html

I'm still confused why people deny they're similar. (Actually, I'm not.) Hehepeepeecaca
 
IMO the liberal agenda is better served by maintaining a separation between black and white, as in it is easier to pass legislation or gain concessions with this separation intact. Anything that starts to blur the line is therefore "bad", even though blurring that line is really what the nation needs. On the other hand, blurring the line between genders serves the liberal agenda better since it opens the door for stronger influence of a new "protected class", that means it becomes easier to pass legislation and gain concessions. Basically anything that promotes special interest groups, specifically protected classes, is better for the liberal agenda.

Remember, everyone is equal, but some people are more equal than others.

"Race and gender have a lot in common in our culture. Both are socially constructed categories that often determine how individuals are viewed and treated by others and where each person falls in a rigid and oppressive hierarchy. Both are constructed on top of biological markers that are observable in infancy. Because of this, they both tend to be seen as clearly defined and immutable, in spite of the fact that there are individuals (for example, black Americans light enough to “pass” as white and people with intersex conditions) who don’t fit within the pre-existing categories. Historically, race and gender hierarchies were even more rigidly enforced than they are now, leading to decades of struggle by those on the bottom to gain the rights and privileges they’d long been excluded from.

In infancy, Dolezal and Jenner were each assigned to a high-status race and gender category, respectively. Both subsequently altered their appearances and sought entry into a different, lower-status category. The discomfort and anger some people who were born black or female feel toward each of them comes from a similar place—to those who never had a choice of whether to grow up being discriminated against and seen as less than, it feels appropriative when a privileged person claims that status in adulthood. There’s no procedure that could give Caitlyn Jenner a girlhood of athletic options limited by her gender, and no hairstyle will ever result in Rachel Dolezal’s grade school teachers lowering their academic expectations for her based on her skin color."
https://www.slate.com/blogs/outward...ransgender_is_different_from_transracial.html

I'm still confused why people deny they're similar. (Actually, I'm not.) Hehepeepeecaca

There is your answer.
 
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