My ongoing fight with UTA police

[Siro]

There is nothing irrational about it. Tapping the card is payment. That's how discount programs generally work.

No. Payment is payment. Tapping the card is to help them track customers. Usually this process is voluntary. They decided not to make it so, and that's fine. But it should be specified in their rules, with its own penalty. There is no way to frame this as stealing, since nobody stole anything from anyone.

 

[♪alt13]

Except the part where you actually paid for it.

You haven't paid for it! Franklin's situation is even more straight forward because it is going to effect the next quote his company gets not just the program in general.

 

[Siro]

You haven't paid for it! Franklin's situation is even more straight forward because it is going to effect the next quote his company gets not just the program in general.

Then it should be stated plainly in the rules. Statistical collection for budgeting purposes is a far cry from someone actually riding for free.

 

[Gameface]

So if you go to this adjudication and do not agree with the UTA adjudicator's assessment do you have any further recourse?

If I were you I'd consider contacting your state senator or whoever it is that votes on UTA funding and telling them your situation and asking if they could call and clarify the policy and the way that it is enforced.

UTA is a terribly ran transit system. They treat their drivers VERY poorly, pay them poorly and often schedule them for ridiculously short shifts that often involve more travel to and from than paid hours.

I think the state should think very hard about dropping UTA and hiring a new transit company.

 

[Harambe]

If 7-Eleven offers an unlimited Slurpee card for $50/month on the condition that you swipe it. If your mom buys you a card and you leave the store without swiping you have stolen the Slurpee.

They have stopped you at the door, and you can't prove anything. Different scenario.

You haven't paid for it! Franklin's situation is even more straight forward because it is going to effect the next quote his company gets not just the program in general.

Now you're just being obstinate.

 

[♪alt13]

Then it should be stated plainly in the rules. Statistical collection for budgeting purposes is a far cry from someone actually riding for free.

1)It is stated plainly in the rules.
2)He is receiving a massive discount. If he doesn't want to swipe his card he should buy a full price pass. So yeah he is stealing the difference.

 

[Gameface]

1)It is stated plainly in the rules.
2)He is receiving a massive discount. If he doesn't want to swipe his card he should buy a full price pass. So yeah he is stealing the difference.

Please just stop.

 

[Gameface]

And if you don't want to stop there's this thread called the stupid pet peeve thread I think you could continue you point in.

 

[LogGrad98]

Didn't you post about this once before? This feels like a deja vu thread. Weird.


Something changed in the matrix apparently.

 

[Harambe]

Please just stop.

This.

Once presented with identification, and an Eco pass the officer will run it on their reader, or even call it in manually. Once that comes back as valid and not fraudulent, that represents a positive ID on a reader, and there for qualifies as fare payment under their own rules.

Stop trying to ruin someone's day.

 

[fishonjazz]

Hey hey stop sticking up for The Man

 

[Siro]

One time I posted on a different t website about a terrible experience I had with Comcast customer service. Everyone was sympathetic, except for one person who spiritedly defended Comcast and mocked me for being a whiner.

I think I now know the culprit...

 

[babe]

Would they not cancel the ticket if you showed them proof that you had a pass, and simply forgot to tap? There isn't much that can be said about the situation. If you feel strongly enough about the principle, and if you're made of money, you can try consulting with a lawyer. But at the end of the day, you just have to accept it as the price of privatization.

Trax is a public, government-owned and operated, transit operation. They are supported by a sales tax across their service area, and their budget includes not only fares receipts but taxes paid. Having their own "police" and administrative "court" is like the Federal government's agencies which have the same sort of "legal" system.

Franklin has a just cause, and it is the cause of every citizen who considers the principle of citizen rights under the US Bill of Rights important. Utah has the same rights specified under the Utah State Constitution.

Liberals sometimes like to blame "privatization" for being at the root of evils, and yes I'm schooling you for the use of that term, but governments who sell off public assets or contract public services to private, usually non-competitive and insanely profitable government-coddled "private corporations" are also as evil as government agencies themselves. You are right to sneer at "privatization" but you need to recognize that every scheme for management that is structured to evade due process rights is evil. Government is never really very good, and people who want the government to do stuff for them are never really very smart. What would be smart for egghead intellectuals fantasizing about solving the world's problems is first of all eliminate as much governance as possible. You're not that smart, and the "lower lights" of humanity are not that stupid. We don't need you.

elect me for the legislature, and I'll put a bill in the hopper that codifies a fine on public employees and managers of public agencies a $1M fine statutorily required to be paid by the individual manager or employee and not by the public tax-supported or public fee supported agency, for every rule that they impose upon citizens, and every "citation" they issue, that does not provide for constitutional trial in regular courts which uphold the right of due process in all respects, and every other constitutional or common law individual right, under recognized jury nullification powers.

A perceptive and interested thinker like Franklin ought to be encouraged, not harassed. Let's make him a millionaire and the UTA conductor personally bankrupt for being a public menace. With a huge judgment in view, even lawyers will defend his rights.

 

[Siro]

^^ Oh jeez. My statement wasn't some kind of socialist manifesto. I just meant that in the end, it is UTA's decision. Had it been a government issued ticket, Franklin could have argued his case in front of a judge.

I'm probably the most capitalism friendly "liberal" on these forums.

 

[babe]

^^ Oh jeez. My statement wasn't some kind of socialist manifesto. I just meant that in the end, it is UTA's decision. Had it been a government issued ticket, Franklin could have argued his case in front of a judge.

I'm probably the most capitalism friendly "liberal" on these forums.

UTA is government, the way I understand it. Franklin's peeve is that there is no valid due process allowed to users of UTA services.

alt might have a point, under contract law, if the contract specifies participating users to tap their pass at the time of service. In which case, I'd expect a good civil court to enforce the fine. But I think Franklin feels that the refusal of the administrator "judge" or UTA official to just ask him to estimate the number of times he "forgot" and tap the card for their tracking credit is unreasonable. A good "jury nullification" decision would imo just change the fine schedule to something reasonable, like say $5. A sort of "please don't bother us with inanity" statement from the public to their government.

uhhhhmmmm. . . . . ready for another game of chess. . . . just to distract me?

I like the word "socialism", just not the European brand that stipulates "government" involvement in business or ownership of property. People have an innate right to associate and cooperate to solve problems or take care of roads, trash, water, air, land. I just like the ordinary people to be in relevant influence in the situation, and the influence of the self-serving sociopaths who are always drawn into power-concentrated positions to be limited. Less power, less nutjob megalomaniacal or corrupt "public servants".

 

[franklin]

So here's my undramatic close to this episode for anyone who might encounter this in the future:


I met with the adjudicator today. I'm under the impression an adjudicator should be unbiased and NOT work for UTA, but they kept saying "we" like they represented UTA. It's an unscheduled, first-come-first served time slot 2 days a week. I requested "Formal Adjudication" and they said it was formal adjudication. lol. No witnesses called to present and no formal written verdict as required by the APA.


The adjudicator and her trainee were confident "we have won this case in court before" and "we've consulted with our council and outside council and they're confident we have written this in an enforceable manner" (paraphrased).


They agreed when I said the language is arbitrary and understood how I could interpret it that way. In addition, they are currently seeking new approval of new administrative language that hopefully will fix the problem. An admittance that I had a fair and reasonable argument. I don't know how much of my input 6 months ago across many UTA departments influenced this but I'm pretending moral victory anyway.


They told me "we" believe the fine amount is unreasonable due to a built in issue with fair prices (it was based forever ago on the amount of a monthly pass that has gone way up in price due to years and years of investment in infrastructure).


They were confident my EcoPass is not in fact an EcoPass but a EFC, and again "we" have won this argument in court.


"We" have a 1 hour class that's instructed by "our" law enforcement officers that will reduce the fine.


They stated that I could take this to appellate court so I would have due process.


The fine is normally lowered to $40 but they conceded to waive that in my case if I take the class. I have due process, which was one part of what I wanted, and they're attempting to clarify the wording which was the other. I still think they're doing things all wrong (i.e. the new wording is not out for public comment yet they WANTED me to make a comment so the adjudicators could gain support for their changes).

 

[franklin]

Trax is a public, government-owned and operated, transit operation. They are supported by a sales tax across their service area, and their budget includes not only fares receipts but taxes paid. Having their own "police" and administrative "court" is like the Federal government's agencies which have the same sort of "legal" system.

Franklin has a just cause, and it is the cause of every citizen who considers the principle of citizen rights under the US Bill of Rights important. Utah has the same rights specified under the Utah State Constitution.

Liberals sometimes like to blame "privatization" for being at the root of evils, and yes I'm schooling you for the use of that term, but governments who sell off public assets or contract public services to private, usually non-competitive and insanely profitable government-coddled "private corporations" are also as evil as government agencies themselves. You are right to sneer at "privatization" but you need to recognize that every scheme for management that is structured to evade due process rights is evil. Government is never really very good, and people who want the government to do stuff for them are never really very smart. What would be smart for egghead intellectuals fantasizing about solving the world's problems is first of all eliminate as much governance as possible. You're not that smart, and the "lower lights" of humanity are not that stupid. We don't need you.

elect me for the legislature, and I'll put a bill in the hopper that codifies a fine on public employees and managers of public agencies a $1M fine statutorily required to be paid by the individual manager or employee and not by the public tax-supported or public fee supported agency, for every rule that they impose upon citizens, and every "citation" they issue, that does not provide for constitutional trial in regular courts which uphold the right of due process in all respects, and every other constitutional or common law individual right, under recognized jury nullification powers.

A perceptive and interested thinker like Franklin ought to be encouraged, not harassed. Let's make him a millionaire and the UTA conductor personally bankrupt for being a public menace. With a huge judgment in view, even lawyers will defend his rights.

Go easy on Siro, dude. He's a very well rounded thinker.

a couple parts I'd like to pull from this are

"Having their own "police" and administrative "court" is like the Federal government's agencies which have the same sort of "legal" system."

That was basically my entire issue. I am not an enforcement officer but I do have the administrative powers (don't know if you call them that or whatever) to issue the equivalent of a citation to the public and business. If something contains grey area I want it fixed, the right way.


My other complaint is public-private partnerships. If it's a necessary public function then have the ****ing public handle it. Privatizing anything invites corruption and embeds a vested interest that now has the resources to lobby to keep the money train (pun intended) coming regardless of any common sense. Stop privatizing public utilities. The private sector does not do everything better.

 

[LogGrad98]

Good job frank. I like the outcome and think it is about the best you could hope for under the circumstances.