How bad is Kanter?

[MDAV28]

I didn't say he's done nothing. I said he's failed to maximize his assets, and done a poor job of being forward-looking.

DL inherited the following (inconsequential role players not included):

1. Prime Al and Paul (with expiring contracts, coming off a playoff berth).
2. Favors, Hayward, Burks and Kanter on rookie deals.
3. Utah Jazz 1st round picks in 2013, 2014 and 2015. The New Jersey Nets' 2013 1st round pick. Some 2nd round picks.

He's turned that into:

1. Favors, Hayward and Burks on extensions.
2. Burke, Gobert, Hood, Exum and Lyles.
3. 2017 GS 1st round pick. A pick from OKC (could be either a non-lottery 1st round or 2nd round pick). A bunch of 2nd round picks.


Color me underwhelmed. Turning Al, Paul, Kanter, four 1st round picks (and some second round picks) and three losing seasons into Burke, Gobert, Hood, Exum, Lyles, and a treadmill in the distance is not terribly exciting. If I had told you in the summer of 2012 that the Jazz would only start challenging for another playoff berth in their fourth season after 2011/12, and would only have one top-8 pick and no top-3 picks to show for it, would you have considered that a success?

I mean... yeah. I think that isn't bad at all really. By just letting Millsap and Jefferson walk, we have gained:

1. Cap flexibility (the most overlooked asset on this board easily)
2. A smart route to avoid mediocrity and give us a chance at high picks the next two seasons
3. Rodney Hood
4. 4 more picks (1 first rounder, very late, and 3 second rounders)

I really think that isn't a bad turn around at all. I mean really, Burke is the only thing that makes that look disappointing at all. That looks pretty incredible if Burke was Giannis or whoever.

 

[GVC]

I don't think Lindsey is perfect, but if you don't think he's the main person responsible for the success of the rebuild, or you don't think he's made any significant moves, you're delusional.

What success? I'm pointing out what I see as a flaw in what DL has actually done. I've admitted that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and that the Al, Paul and Kanter ****-ups (along with the in-season and free agency inaction) could be explained in numerous ways in isolation. I just think the fellating of DL is premature. Look at what he inherited, and look at where the team is now. Had I told you in the summer of 2012 that this is what you had to look forward to, would you have considered it a success?

And yeah, the Burke, Gobert and GS trades were good. Hood and Exum were mocked to go higher in the draft, and essentially fell in the Jazz's lap (and Exum is still just a question mark).The Favors extension was a no-brainer, DL ultimately made the right decision on Hayward after miscalculating his FA price in extension negotiations, and the Burks extension looks good so far. That doesn't erase how Al, Millsap, Kanter, free agency, and potential in-season moves have been mishandled. Dancing in the streets after 3 **** seasons because your team might be one of 16 in the playoffs this year seems more delusional to me.

 

[GVC]

You're an angry little munchkin hey

Better than being a complete ****ing moron.

 

[GVC]

I mean... yeah. I think that isn't bad at all really. By just letting Millsap and Jefferson walk, we have gained:

1. Cap flexibility (the most overlooked asset on this board easily)
2. A smart route to avoid mediocrity and give us a chance at high picks the next two seasons
3. Rodney Hood
4. 4 more picks (1 first rounder, very late, and 3 second rounders)

I really think that isn't a bad turn around at all. I mean really, Burke is the only thing that makes that look disappointing at all. That looks pretty incredible if Burke was Giannis or whoever.

Did you even read my post? DL was GM for the 2012/13 season. That team was already a dead-end. Al and Paul could have been moved before they walked in 2013. DL apparently thought it was better to sit in his office doing nothing, and watch the team finish in the late lottery.

 

[MDAV28]

Did you even read my post? DL was GM for the 2012/13 season. That team was already a dead-end. Al and Paul could have been moved before they walked in 2013. DL apparently thought it was better to sit in his office and watch the team finish in the late lottery.

What do we take back for 22.2 million of unrestricted contracts (almost 1/3 of the cap in 2013) between Millsap and Jefferson that doesn't hinder our cap flexibility? He obviously saw the team was a dead-end, hence the rebuild bud.

We basically traded Millsap and Jefferson (and Kevin Murphy) for Biedrins, Rush, Jefferson, 2 first rounds picks (one has turned into Rodney Hood), 3 second round picks, cash, and flexibility (to resign Hayward, Favors, Burks, Kanter if needed, and now Gobert, Exum, Hood, etc.)

 

[spycam1]

What success? I'm pointing out what I see as a flaw in what DL has actually done. I've admitted that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and that the Al, Paul and Kanter ****-ups (along with the in-season and free agency inaction) could be explained in numerous ways in isolation. I just think the fellating of DL is premature. Look at what he inherited, and look at where the team is now. Had I told you in the summer of 2012 that this is what you had to look forward to, would you have considered it a success?

And yeah, the Burke, Gobert and GS trades were good. Hood and Exum were mocked to go higher in the draft, and essentially fell in the Jazz's lap (and Exum is still just a question mark).The Favors extension was a no-brainer, DL ultimately made the right decision on Hayward after miscalculating his FA price in extension negotiations, and the Burks extension looks good so far. That doesn't erase how Al, Millsap, Kanter, free agency, and potential in-season moves have been mishandled. Dancing in the streets after 3 **** seasons because your team might be one of 16 in the playoffs this year seems more delusional to me.

Yes, I would consider this a success. There were four potential franchise changers in the 2014 Draft, and we got one of them. We got what could go down as the best defensive talent in this generation in Gobert. We now have who I consider to be the best up and coming coach in the league. I see the potential for a contender growing. A lot of that is riding on Exum living up to the hype, but the potential IS there. The only other young team in the league that you could argue has a better chance at becoming contenders one day is Minnesota.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

[GVC]

What do we take back for 22.2 million of unrestricted contracts (almost 1/3 of the cap in 2013) between Millsap and Jefferson that doesn't hinder our cap flexibility?

What are unrestricted contracts? The Jazz could have traded for other expiring contracts and picks (or just other expiring contracts), and tanked a year earlier.

We basically traded Millsap and Jefferson (and Kevin Murphy) for Biedrins, Rush, Jefferson, 2 first rounds picks (one has turned into Rodney Hood), 3 second round picks, and cash.

Given the above, I don't accept this narrative (obviously).

I do accept that it's possible, if not probable, that the Millers wanted the Jazz to try to make the playoffs in 2012/13, and instructed DL to avoid trades that hindered that goal. Still, I think a GM should be evaluated (primarily) based on where he is relative to where he started. In his 4th season, DL may have finally put together a team as good as the dead-end team he inherited. That's less than impressive in my opinion.

That's not to say he's a terrible GM who needs to be fired yesterday, but there's still work to be done. This team doesn't currently have the talent to contend before the current crop of players are up for new contracts.

 

[Jazz4ever]

What success? I'm pointing out what I see as a flaw in what DL has actually done. I've admitted that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and that the Al, Paul and Kanter ****-ups (along with the in-season and free agency inaction) could be explained in numerous ways in isolation. I just think the fellating of DL is premature. Look at what he inherited, and look at where the team is now. Had I told you in the summer of 2012 that this is what you had to look forward to, would you have considered it a success?

And yeah, the Burke, Gobert and GS trades were good. Hood and Exum were mocked to go higher in the draft, and essentially fell in the Jazz's lap (and Exum is still just a question mark).The Favors extension was a no-brainer, DL ultimately made the right decision on Hayward after miscalculating his FA price in extension negotiations, and the Burks extension looks good so far. That doesn't erase how Al, Millsap, Kanter, free agency, and potential in-season moves have been mishandled. Dancing in the streets after 3 **** seasons because your team might be one of 16 in the playoffs this year seems more delusional to me.

Jazz are the youngest team in the league guy. They beat EVERY elite team at least once last year. They finished with a historically good defense in the second half. I guess you think DL should have been a miracle worker and flipped Al and Paul for Lebron. Their realistic trade value was Rudy Gay, Monta Ellis types. Overpaid vets like themselves who have put up decent volume numbers on horrible teams. If you put them on DL's asset list to attack him, then expect to be called out on it. You have yet to give one actual realistic name Al or Paul could have fetched, and that is always the case in the Al/Paul talks, how predictable. Real GMs actually have to target a player, find a good fit for both teams, make the salaries work, etc. Let's keep railing DL with these fantasy, hollow, arguments, that's fun.

 

[GVC]

*irrelevant nonsense*

Reading is fundamental. Stay in school.

 

[zbone]

In his 4th season, DL may have finally put together a team as good as the dead-end team he inherited. That's less than impressive in my opinion.

Well, here I disagree with you. This team is young and up and coming. At worst it will be a low seed playoff team which was best case for the team DL inherited. If the assets that old team had don't get converted into something much better then we can say DL failed but at this point this yet to be seen.
This doesn't mean we can't say that Millsap/Al/Kanter assets were straight up wasted.

 

[GVC]

Well, here I disagree with you.

That's fine.

This team is young and up and coming. At worst it will be a low seed playoff team which was best case for the team DL inherited.

This team could absolutely miss the playoffs.

If the assets that old team had don't get converted into something much better then we can say DL failed but at this point this yet to be seen.

I agree. I'm not starting a "Fire DL" bandwagon or anything. I don't think the team as constructed has enough talent to contend now or in the future. There's still work to be done.

This doesn't mean we can't say that Millsap/Al/Kanter assets were straight up wasted.

Yep.

 

[zbone]

This team could absolutely miss the playoffs.

I mean in mid-short term for the team that currently being built the floor is low playoff birth. The guys will get better simply because it's natural for such young team, we have more than plenty of cap room for signing better role players to strengthen our bench.
Could we get it better like OKC? Yes
Could we get it worse? Most certainly.