Official Offseason Rumors Thread

[Carbon13]

Haha funny you mention Jeff Green. On Zach Lowe's podcast with Kevin Arnovitz, Zach and Kevin spend almost a minute talking about how every team that has made a move to get Jeff Green is fooled into thinking Jeff Green is good, then they get him on the team and realize he's not hahaha.

It's true. Jeff Green is not good.


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I just listened to the same podcast and immediately thought of the comment I made in this thread. lol

 

[NAOS]

Lets hear the ones "I dont put faith in" that support your theory. Maybe they will change my mind. I am not seeing any nor does my eye test show that but I have not watched more than about 20 Portland games this year.

So by your standard GS would have had pretty much the same season minus a few more losses this season if you swap Lillard for Curry?

How about the Jazz and Portland if you swap Hayward and Lillard? Jazz make the 5 seed and Portland misses the playoffs?

You're extending my comment in some silly ways. And, I'm not the one that wants to rush right to statisics; that's you.

I'll say this, though: any statistical comparison between Hayward and Lillard has to come with some acknowledgment that Lillard literally bends an entire half-court defense with his offense; and since he has basically unlimited range, he starts bending that defense near the logo at half court. So, he has the statistical impact that he does, despite the fact that defenses are paying him that much attention (the comparisons to Curry start here). You're lying to yourself if you think Hayward has anywhere near that kind of impact. Do defenses make sure to account for him? Yes. But they don't go to nearly the same lengths..... because they don't have to. I'm pretty sure Lillard is better in transition, too, but Gordon is also very good.

And, added to that is the simple fact that Lillard is a straight-up killer. That edge, braugh. ****ing killer.

 

[Ron Mexico]

You're extending my comment in some silly ways. And, I'm not the one that wants to rush right to statisics; that's you.

I'll say this, though: any statistical comparison between Hayward and Lillard has to come with some acknowledgment that Lillard literally bends an entire half-court defense with his offense; and since he has basically unlimited range, he starts bending that defense near the logo at half court. So, he has the statistical impact that he does, despite the fact that defenses are paying him that much attention (the comparisons to Curry start here). You're lying to yourself if you think Hayward has anywhere near that kind of impact. Do defenses make sure to account for him? Yes. But they don't go to nearly the same lengths..... because they don't have to. I'm pretty sure Lillard is better in transition, too, but Gordon is also very good.

And, added to that is the simple fact that Lillard is a straight-up killer. That edge, braugh. ****ing killer.

I'm not bending anything. I'm legitimately trying to get your opinion. Asking questions is a way to see your view, not bending it. You said there are some stats and I don't see them, I would like to if they exist. I do think defenses game plan and shift just as much towards Hayward. He is the sole focus of teams when they play the jazz. He is often double and triple teamed. I think I could buy an argument that he is slightly better, maybe he is but still in the same category as Hayward. I don't see Lillard as head and shoulders better and in the same category as Curry.

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[Batman]

I disagree.
I think you have a level of really good players. Think hayward, tony parker, dirk, paul millsap, ibaka, mccollum, kemba walker, karl anthony towns, wiggins, etc. Then i think you have your low end all star type guys. Think jimmy butler, bosh, demar derozan, isiah thomas, kyle lowry, mike conley, klay thompson, tim duncan, kyrie irving (maybe he is in the star level even), etc. Then you have your star players. Think anthony davis, lillard, paul george, cp3, harden, westbrook, griffin, etc. Then you have superstars which is basically championship mvp type guys like kawhi, steph, lebron, and durant. Now you could definately have some guys get moved around a bit like maybe cp3 is a superstar, maybe current duncan (i was going off each player for this year only) should go down to only a really good player rather than low end all star and things like that.
But hayward doesn't belong with the star or superstar guys like the brow, dame dolla, cp3, westbrook, kawhi, steph, harden, etc etc.

we should always be trying to get one of those guys. Hayward will never be one of those guys imo. Maybe simmons will be though. You might be right that hayward is a top 30 guy in the league but that is not good enough for a teams #1 guy imo. We need to get a top 11 or 12 guy.
If we were in the playoffs then no matter who we matched up against the other team would have the best player in the game against us. If we played the spurs then leonard would be the best player in the series. If we played the warriors it would be curry. Thunder, durant. Clipps, cp3. Memphis, conley or gasol. Porland, lillard. dallas, Dirk (though i have hayward as being better than current dirk.. and dallas isn't a threat to anyone in the playoffs). Houston, harden.

Stars win playoff series. If hayward is our best and highest paid player then i dont see us winning any playoff series anytime soon cause we would always be playing a team in the playoffs with a bigger star on their team than hayward.

I think you are one of the better posters on Jazzfanz, but I ardently disagree that Derozan is a tier higher than Hayward. Put Derozan on this team. We'd have won less games this year. Everything else, you may be right. But honestly, I think Hayward is on the same level as most of those tier 2 stars you named. We had a crazy young team and Favors and Gobert missed like 40% of the season combined. It's kind of amazing we won 40 games. Take Hayward off this team, we'd have won less than 30 games.


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[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Hayward for Ingram or Simmons is laughable, sets this team back years

I'd do it in a heartbeat. I like Hayward, but if I'm being honest I think he's been an overfeatured player on a mediocre team in the past few years. If he can be traded for truly elite talent, you have to lean toward doing that deal. It's a gamble on Boston's part if they think Hayward can help recruit another FA to Boston. The Jazz would be taking advantage of the Cs gamble.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I think the main reason the Jazz traded Deron Williams was not because they feared he'd leave in free agency, but because they didn't want to give him a $100M 4-year max contract he was seeking. That turned out to be one of the worst contracts in the league, and I think the Jazz FO could see that coming. The rift with Sloan and the fear that DWill would leave as a free agent certainly were factors that contributed, but it was a smart-money move, imo. If the Jazz trade Hayward, it will be because they don't want to max him, and they'll choose to sell high instead.

It's a simple question: Regardless of whether Hayward wants to stay in Utah, do you want to max Hayward at $25M/year under the rising cap? Maybe he's one of our top 3 guys, so the answer is unequivocally yes, but that will be the question the Jazz will be asking themselves. Star players on rookie deals who can be extended are really, really valuable commodities.

Hayward is pretty clearly a second-tier star. He's the Joe Johnson, the Shawn Marion, etc. He'll get a max contract from someone, but will it be the Jazz?

 

[Batman]

Also, Hayward came up big in both the Mavs and Clippers game. Only problem his 3 point shot not falling in Mavs game but he still had an effective FG%. Same thing could easily happen to Butler and Derozen.


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[Batman]

I think the main reason the Jazz traded Deron Williams was not because they feared he'd leave in free agency, but because they didn't want to give him a $100M 4-year max contract he was seeking. That turned out to be one of the worst contracts in the league, and I think the Jazz FO could see that coming. The rift with Sloan and the fear that DWill would leave as a free agent certainly were factors that contributed, but it was a smart-money move, imo. If the Jazz trade Hayward, it will be because they don't want to max him, and they'll choose to sell high instead.

It's a simple question: Regardless of whether Hayward wants to stay in Utah, do you want to max Hayward at $25M/year under the rising cap? Maybe he's one of our top 3 guys, so the answer is unequivocally yes, but that will be the question the Jazz will be asking themselves. Star players on rookie deals who can be extended are really, really valuable commodities.

Hayward is pretty clearly a second-tier star. He's the Joe Johnson, the Shawn Marion, etc. He'll get a max contract from someone, but will it be the Jazz?

I think if the front office had doubts about resigning him, they would have traded him to Boston before the deadline. I think The FO knows what's on the table and they plan to act accordingly.



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[Handlogten's Heros]

The trade Hayward thing is kind of stupid tbh. Not because it's a bad idea but because our front office and owner wouldn't have the balls to do it. We didn't add any players in free agency last year because we didn't want to disrupt chemistry. I doubt they'd trade their best player for a guy who could be an all star while setting the franchise back.

I could see pressure mounting and is doing the opposite... A short term win now type move. Teague, gay, type of player for a future pick.

 

[b_line]

The trade Hayward thing is kind of stupid tbh. Not because it's a bad idea but because our front office and owner wouldn't have the balls to do it. We didn't add any players in free agency last year because we didn't want to disrupt chemistry. I doubt they'd trade their best player for a guy who could be an all star while setting the franchise back.

I could see pressure mounting and is doing the opposite... A short term win now type move. Teague, gay, type of player for a future pick.

Which is honestly not a bad thing. It's a risk either way you look at it. What if Hayward and more support turns into a borderline contender? It's about as risky as saying simmons will lead the team to titles 7 years from now.

 

[green]

If Boston offered a top 2 pick for Hayward, you do it. No brainer.

Then if you want to have a maxed out above average role player, give Batum the max.

Exum, Mack, Neto
Hood, Burks
Batum, FA/draft pick
Favors/Simmons/Lyles
Gobert/FA

That team is just as good as last year's team if not better.

No brainer.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If Boston offered a top 2 pick for Hayward, you do it. No brainer.

Then if you want to have a maxed out above average role player, give Batum the max.

Exum, Mack, Neto
Hood, Burks
Batum, FA/draft pick
Favors/Simmons/Lyles
Gobert/FA

That team is just as good as last year's team if not better.

No brainer.

Except Batum likely has multiple maxes to choose from. If it was top 2 I'd do it but not sure our front office would.