Where does Hill/Hood/Hayward rank?

[fishonjazz]

Hill has a very limited sample size, and he's outperforming his historical numbers by a mile (which one can argue is due to the Jazz system). Nonetheless, Lowry has better numbers with over 22 ppg on 50% 2pt shooting and 44% from the 3. He also dishes out 7.3 asp and grabs 5 rebounds.

Ya hill has a small sample size but it is what it is. That is what we have to go off with the jazz so far.

Per 36
field goal percentage.
Hill 55.1
lowry 46.9
advantage hill by a lot

3 point %
Hill 47.5
Lowry 44.4
Advantage hill by a decent amount

free throw %
Hill 83.7
lowry 84.7
Advantage lowry by a tiny margin

rebounds
Hill 4.3
lowry 4.6
advantage lowry by a tiny margin

assists
hill 4.8
lowry 7.0
advantage lowry by a lot

blocks
each at 0.3

steals
1.4 for hill and 1.5 for lowry
slight advantage lowry by basically nothing. pretty much equal

points
22.3 for hill
21.5 for lowry
advantage Hill by a tiny bit

Turnovers
hill 1.6
lowry 2.8
advantage hill by a decent amount

Pretty darn close all around. I think hills length puts him over the top.

Give me this years jazz version of hill over this years raptors version of lowry if both are healthy.

 

[fishonjazz]

They played very well in the East last year that was better than the West. Hill and Lowry are the same age check their stats for last year when you have a much better sample size. Also Lowry is still doing much more for his team this year than Hill is for us. Hill is very efficient but almost every other number Lowry is putting up better.

Also Raptors have lost 10 games this year. 2 of those are to GS, 3 of those are to the Cavs, that is 5. 4 of the other losses they were missing starters.

We disagree about the east being better than the west last year.

Im not going to look at Hills stats when he played a different role for a different team.

Jazz have lost zero games to any teams at all when they are mostly healthy.

I disagree that lowry is putting up better stats besides efficiency. He is simply playing more minutes. Check my previous post to compare their stats.

 

[Ron Mexico]

^ biggest stat you skipped is games played. If Hill had put up those stats for 30 games instead of 10 I might think it is more sustainable. I think Hill is great but some of his percentages might dip a bit. Also if was scoring more and facilitating like Lowry is his efficiency would drop a bit.

 

[Miggs]

^ biggest stat you skipped is games played. If Hill had put up those stats for 30 games instead of 10 I might think it is more sustainable. I think Hill is great but some of his percentages might dip a bit. Also if was scoring more and facilitating like Lowry is his efficiency would drop a bit.

Hill's been the GOAT this year but I'll be the dick and say that they might not dip, they definitively will. He's not shooting 55% from the floor for the year. No way in hell.

 

[Ron Mexico]

We disagree about the east being better than the west last year.

Im going to look at Hills stats when he played a different role for a different team.

Jazz have lost zero games to any teams at all when they are mostly healthy.

I disagree that lowry is putting up better stats besides efficiency. He is simply playing more minutes. Check my previous post to compare their stats.

The east was ahead all season until the end but it was the closest season for the conferences in like 20 years. But if you only go off playoff teams they only slightly had a better record but that is because the team skewing the stats in their favor the most was GS who lost to the Cavs in the finals.

 

[fishonjazz]

^ biggest stat you skipped is games played. If Hill had put up those stats for 30 games instead of 10 I might think it is more sustainable. I think Hill is great but some of his percentages might dip a bit. Also if was scoring more and facilitating like Lowry is his efficiency would drop a bit.

He played in the games he played in. I didn't cherry pick.
Maybe if he doesn't miss any games his efficiency goes up and stats go up even more cause he gets more familar with the jazz system and his teammates. Also lowry has had a healthier team around him giving him more consistency. Maybe having a full compliment of weapons around hill makes his numbers even better too.

I simply compared their numbers in the games that they have played in this year. They are what they are. I didn't invent them or cherry pick them.

 

[fishonjazz]

The east was ahead all season until the end but it was the closest season for the conferences in like 20 years. But if you only go off playoff teams they only slightly had a better record but that is because the team skewing the stats in their favor the most was GS who lost to the Cavs in the finals.

I think the west was better last year. Last year has nothing to do with george hills play for the jazz or who is better this year out of lowry and hill though so it doesn't matter.

 

[Ron Mexico]

He played in the games he played in. I didn't cherry pick.
Maybe if he doesn't miss any games his efficiency goes up and stats go up even more cause he gets more familar with the jazz system and his teammates. Also lowry has had a healthier team around him giving him more consistency. Maybe having a full compliment of weapons around hill makes his numbers even better too.

I simply compared their numbers in the games that they have played in this year. They are what they are. I didn't invent them or cherry pick them.

Maybe I was more referring to the fact that he isnt playing much this year so its hard to call him a better player. The best player doesnt wear a suit most of the season game day.

If you think Hill is better that is fine. I just think you have to pick a couple positions they are better at if the teams are roughly on the same level or Raptors are better. Maybe Hill is better and we are much better when all the way healthy. Maybe DeRozan is much better than Hayward and is caring their team way more.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

They've never lost this they are GOAT!

I think they haven't lost right someone please figure it out for me tia

 

[fishonjazz]

Bottom line. I would take this years healthy george hill over this years healthy lowry so far.
Just my opinion.

If the question is whether i would rather have this years george hill for 12 games or this years lowry for 32 games then i take lowry.

I also take derozan over hayward cause derozan has played more games.

I also probably take pascal siakam over favors cause he played in 32 games vs favors 18 games.

 

[fishonjazz]

The best player doesnt wear a suit most of the season game day.

I disagree. If lebron had missed a bunch of games this year then i would still think he was better than all the players on both the jazz and the raptors. I dont think injuries necessarily make you a worse player. They can, if you cant come back from them to be 100% but they dont always mean you are worse. Just that you got unlucky and got hurt is all.

 

[fishonjazz]

^ biggest stat you skipped is games played. If Hill had put up those stats for 30 games instead of 10 I might think it is more sustainable. I think Hill is great but some of his percentages might dip a bit. Also if was scoring more and facilitating like Lowry is his efficiency would drop a bit.

ALso, just a minor correction but Hill has played in 12 games, not 10.
And hill already is scoring more on a per minute basis.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Bottom line. I would take this years healthy george hill over this years healthy lowry so far.
Just my opinion.

If the question is whether i would rather have this years george hill for 12 games or this years lowry for 32 games then i take lowry.

I also take derozan over hayward cause derozan has played more games.

I also probably take pascal siakam over favors cause he played in 32 games vs favors 18 games.

I would trade Hill for Lowry in a heartbeat. If salaries are the same with future contracts I would sign Lowry this season over Hill. I also might trade DeRozan for Hayward but that one would be very close for me and I might not do it just for the chemistry reason. I would also not take DeRozan over Hayward because he played a couple more games. It is a matter of Hill missing 20+ games this year, 8 games last year (not bad) and 39 the year before that does concern me. I would not take Pascal over Favors even this season because even if we had him he probably would not play over Diaw or Lyles much at all to matter.

But I hope we get healthy and never lose again this season like we have with Hill and Hayward playing and Hill keeps up his level of efficiency, but that is unlikely. Those are just hopes though. Raptors are better than the Jazz right now and have been for awhile. Hopefully we get healthy and become better than them and I think we could/should.

 

[fishonjazz]

I just think you have to pick a couple positions they are better at if the teams are roughly on the same level or Raptors are better.

I think that the fact that both teams records are currently pretty close with the jazz being #1 in the nba in games missed due to injuries and playing in the better conference might be a bit of evidence that the jazz starters and bench are in fact a bit better than the Raptors everywhere.

 

[fishonjazz]

I would trade Hill for Lowry in a heartbeat. If salaries are the same with future contracts I would sign Lowry this season over Hill. I also might trade DeRozan for Hayward but that one would be very close for me and I might not do it just for the chemistry reason. I would also not take DeRozan over Hayward because he played a couple more games. It is a matter of Hill missing 20+ games this year, 8 games last year (not bad) and 39 the year before that does concern me. I would not take Pascal over Favors even this season because even if we had him he probably would not play over Diaw or Lyles much at all to matter.

But I hope we get healthy and never lose again this season like we have with Hill and Hayward playing and Hill keeps up his level of efficiency, but that is unlikely. Those are just hopes though. Raptors are better than the Jazz right now and have been for awhile. Hopefully we get healthy and become better than them and I think we could/should.

If you want to discuss who we would rather take based on injures then sure I would take lowry over hill. Healthy player makes your team better than an injured one imo.

I was simply saying that I would take a healthy hill from this season over a healthy lowry from this season. I thought I made that clear when I said it in my previous posts. I'm looking at each player when healthy since I can't predict the future.
Maybe hill never gets hurt in the rest of his entire career. Maybe lowry gets a career ending injury in his next game.

I was comparing each player when healthy this season and saying I would rather have hill.

 

[fishonjazz]

Fwiw the suns beat the Raptors last night.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I disagree. If lebron had missed a bunch of games this year then i would still think he was better than all the players on both the jazz and the raptors. I dont think injuries necessarily make you a worse player. They can, if you cant come back from them to be 100% but they dont always mean you are worse. Just that you got unlucky and got hurt is all.

Fair point, but you can look to last season for Lebron for comparison to know what he is. Lowry has been a better player for awhile over Hill, this 12 games is not very representative of his career, which we have plenty to look at. Maybe Hill made a huge jump all of a sudden, maybe he wasnt trying as hard before or maybe the Jazz system fits him better but that does not take away that outside of a very small sample size Lowry has been better and even this year Lowry is better at many aspects of his game and stats. The only thing Hill is better at is his efficiency in shooting but his usage is below Lowrys which can help with that and again it is a small sample size.

 

[Ron Mexico]

If you want to discuss who we would rather take based on injures then sure I would take lowry over hill. Healthy player makes your team better than an injured one imo.

I was simply saying that I would take a healthy hill from this season over a healthy lowry from this season. I thought I made that clear when I said it in my previous posts. I'm looking at each player when healthy since I can't predict the future.
Maybe hill never gets hurt in the rest of his entire career. Maybe lowry gets a career ending injury in his next game.

I was comparing each player when healthy this season and saying I would rather have hill.

I am saying I would trade a healthy Hill for a healthy Lowry assuming all the contracts were the same. He is a better player to me. But I understand why Jazz fans are excited about Hill, I am too and hope he can stay healthy and we get rolling for the playoffs.

 

[fishonjazz]

Also fwiw regarding injuries.

Since hill has been in the league he has played in 562 games including this season injury.
Lowry has played in 593. Thats 3.4 more games per season.
If you dont take this season in to account (the toe sprain) then Hill had played in 550 and lowry 561. Not much of a difference when it comes to injuries it would seem.

 

[fishonjazz]

Fair point, but you can look to last season for Lebron for comparison to know what he is. Lowry has been a better player for awhile over Hill, this 12 games is not very representative of his career, which we have plenty to look at. Maybe Hill made a huge jump all of a sudden, maybe he wasnt trying as hard before or maybe the Jazz system fits him better but that does not take away that outside of a very small sample size Lowry has been better and even this year Lowry is better at many aspects of his game and stats. The only thing Hill is better at is his efficiency in shooting but his usage is below Lowrys which can help with that and again it is a small sample size.

Looking at their career stats they are not all that far apart in scoring, rebounds, and assists with lowry having the edge in each. Hill still the more efficient player. Lowry played in a role where he handles the ball a ton and has a ton of usage. Hill didn't. They played different roles.
No way to know how they would compare in similar roles. I have always probably over valued efficency though so that might be why i feel different than you on this one.

This season though in his new role with his new team not only is hill more efficient but he is also averaging more ppg when you adjust for the same amount of minutes.

It could be argued (though i think its not worth much discussion personally) that since hill has been in the league for 2 less season and played less minutes per game and less total games that hill has less mileage on his body.