Where does Hill/Hood/Hayward rank?

[Ron Mexico]

I disagree. If lebron had missed a bunch of games this year then i would still think he was better than all the players on both the jazz and the raptors. I dont think injuries necessarily make you a worse player. They can, if you cant come back from them to be 100% but they dont always mean you are worse. Just that you got unlucky and got hurt is all.

Fair point, but you can look to last season for Lebron for comparison to know what he is. Lowry has been a better player for awhile over Hill, this 12 games is not very representative of his career, which we have plenty to look at. Maybe Hill made a huge jump all of a sudden, maybe he wasnt trying as hard before or maybe the Jazz system fits him better but that does not take away that outside of a very small sample size Lowry has been better and even this year Lowry is better at many aspects of his game and stats. The only thing Hill is better at is his efficiency in shooting but his usage is below Lowrys which can help with that and again it is a small sample size.

 

[Ron Mexico]

If you want to discuss who we would rather take based on injures then sure I would take lowry over hill. Healthy player makes your team better than an injured one imo.

I was simply saying that I would take a healthy hill from this season over a healthy lowry from this season. I thought I made that clear when I said it in my previous posts. I'm looking at each player when healthy since I can't predict the future.
Maybe hill never gets hurt in the rest of his entire career. Maybe lowry gets a career ending injury in his next game.

I was comparing each player when healthy this season and saying I would rather have hill.

I am saying I would trade a healthy Hill for a healthy Lowry assuming all the contracts were the same. He is a better player to me. But I understand why Jazz fans are excited about Hill, I am too and hope he can stay healthy and we get rolling for the playoffs.

 

[fishonjazz]

Also fwiw regarding injuries.

Since hill has been in the league he has played in 562 games including this season injury.
Lowry has played in 593. Thats 3.4 more games per season.
If you dont take this season in to account (the toe sprain) then Hill had played in 550 and lowry 561. Not much of a difference when it comes to injuries it would seem.

 

[fishonjazz]

Fair point, but you can look to last season for Lebron for comparison to know what he is. Lowry has been a better player for awhile over Hill, this 12 games is not very representative of his career, which we have plenty to look at. Maybe Hill made a huge jump all of a sudden, maybe he wasnt trying as hard before or maybe the Jazz system fits him better but that does not take away that outside of a very small sample size Lowry has been better and even this year Lowry is better at many aspects of his game and stats. The only thing Hill is better at is his efficiency in shooting but his usage is below Lowrys which can help with that and again it is a small sample size.

Looking at their career stats they are not all that far apart in scoring, rebounds, and assists with lowry having the edge in each. Hill still the more efficient player. Lowry played in a role where he handles the ball a ton and has a ton of usage. Hill didn't. They played different roles.
No way to know how they would compare in similar roles. I have always probably over valued efficency though so that might be why i feel different than you on this one.

This season though in his new role with his new team not only is hill more efficient but he is also averaging more ppg when you adjust for the same amount of minutes.

It could be argued (though i think its not worth much discussion personally) that since hill has been in the league for 2 less season and played less minutes per game and less total games that hill has less mileage on his body.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Looking at their career stats they are not all that far apart in scoring, rebounds, and assists with lowry having the edge in each. Hill still the more efficient player. Lowry played in a role where he handles the ball a ton and has a ton of usage. Hill didn't. They played different roles.
No way to know how they would compare in similar roles. I have always probably over valued efficency though so that might be why i feel different than you on this one.

This season though in his new role with his new team not only is hill more efficient but he is also averaging more ppg when you adjust for the same amount of minutes.

It could be argued (though i think its not worth much discussion personally) that since hill has been in the league for 2 less season and played less minutes per game and less total games that hill has less mileage on his body.

Their career numbers might be closer but the last 4 years (which matters more than 10 years ago what they did) since Lowry has really taken off they are not close statistically. Lowry took awhile to get good.

As far as injuries go I only care about lately. Lowry missed almost his entire rookie year but obviously that is not a factor since it was 10 years ago. Maybe Hill has had bad luck 2 of the last 3 years or maybe his body is breaking down more? I dont know. 2014-15 season might be the best comparison for the two since they played similar roles that year, they are not that far off that year Lowry put up a lot more numbers in most categories but Hill was a little more efficient. I dont think the gap is big but I still take Lowry.

I put Lowry pretty high on my list right now. I put him behind Curry, Westbrook, Harden and probably CP3. I put him in the same tier as Wall, Lillard, Irving, Thomas and Walker.

 

[fishonjazz]

As far as injuries go I only care about lately. Lowry missed almost his entire rookie year

I didn't include lowrys rookie year. (Or his second)
I was just going off since hill entered the league so it would be the same amount of years. Didn't want to cherry pick (Lowry entered the nba 2 years before hill)

 

[Jazz4ever]

I would trade Hill for Lowry in a heartbeat. If salaries are the same with future contracts I would sign Lowry this season over Hill. I also might trade DeRozan for Hayward but that one would be very close for me and I might not do it just for the chemistry reason. I would also not take DeRozan over Hayward because he played a couple more games. It is a matter of Hill missing 20+ games this year, 8 games last year (not bad) and 39 the year before that does concern me. I would not take Pascal over Favors even this season because even if we had him he probably would not play over Diaw or Lyles much at all to matter.

But I hope we get healthy and never lose again this season like we have with Hill and Hayward playing and Hill keeps up his level of efficiency, but that is unlikely. Those are just hopes though. Raptors are better than the Jazz right now and have been for awhile. Hopefully we get healthy and become better than them and I think we could/should.

Why would you even risk it? You couldn't ask a PG to be better than what Hill has been for the Jazz, if so, let me know how.
I'm not sure Chris Paul would even be better for the Jazz. For whatever reason it seems to be a perfect match.

 

[RJF]

I dont know how you can say they are better at all 5 positions and they have a better record and have made some serious noise in the playoffs. I think we have had bad luck with health but even if we stayed healthy we would have only won a few more games this season. We have been beat up during the easier part of our schedule and outside of a few games really fought hard. Raptors will most likely end up with the #1 seed in the East this year if they keep up this level of play based on all other stats and their schedule going forward.

I do think Favors and Gobert are better than their C and PF. Although closer with their C than PF. Hood is better but I dont see a way to put Hill ahead of Lowry. Hill has put up really efficient stats this year but he has hardly played and still Lowry is doing more for his team. They are the number 1 offense because of Lowry and DeRozan. I think a lineup of Lowry, DeRozan, Hood, Favors and Gobert with the depth we have behind them and our team style play and defense would be scary good. DeRozan would give us a really reliable scorer that Hayward is not. Lowry distributes the ball very well.

This thing called injuries...

 

[Ron Mexico]

Why would you even risk it? You couldn't ask a PG to be better than what Hill has been for the Jazz, if so, let me know how.
I'm not sure Chris Paul would even be better for the Jazz. For whatever reason it seems to be a perfect match.

I would risk it to be better with a better player.

 

[Tom349]

Hill and Lowry played each other in the playoffs last season and Hill completely outplayed him. Lowry went 7/43 from 3 with Hill defending him. Whilst the sample size for Hill is much larger than the games he has played for Utah. Given with the pacers he has played a similar role during play offs and when without Paul George, he just didn't have the perfect fit as he does he here with the Jazz.

As for Hayward and Derozan, the only thing Derozan does better is score the ball but even then he is somewhat limited offensively given he can't shoot the three ball. Whilst Hayward is the better defender so I would comfortably take Hayward.

Hood and Carroll is relatively close (advantage Hood on current play) given how inconsistent they both are but I would rather the younger player with the far greater upside.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Hill and Lowry played each other in the playoffs last season and Hill completely outplayed him. Lowry went 7/43 from 3 with Hill defending him. Whilst the sample size for Hill is much larger than the games he has played for Utah. Given with the pacers he has played a similar role during play offs and when without Paul George, he just didn't have the perfect fit as he does he here with the Jazz.

As for Hayward and Derozan, the only thing Derozan does better is score the ball but even then he is somewhat limited offensively given he can't shoot the three ball. Whilst Hayward is the better defender so I would comfortably take Hayward.

Hood and Carroll is relatively close (advantage Hood on current play) given how inconsistent they both are but I would rather the younger player with the far greater upside.

Yet Lowry and DeRozan beat Hill and George. Lowry struggled from three in that series and the entire playoffs but he still did average almost 8 assists to Hills 2. They also averaged the same points although Hill did shoot way less although he maybe should have shot more to help his team win or set up his teammates better. Lowry did get more steals and get to the FT line more as well. Also Lowry did better than him in the regular season matchups that year. I also dont think head to head matchups make a player better or worse. Even Dwill after his decline post Utah outplayed CP3 a lot. For their careers head to head matchup Lowry has gotten the best more often than Hill. He has averaged more points, double the assists, double the rebounds,more steals and more free throws. Hill has shot .467 to his .457 in those games though.

 

[fishonjazz]

Why you hate GMFH so much bro?