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Players are a reflection of their head coach

H

Hanginthere

Member
Extending Tyrone Corbin was a HUGE mistake...

Time after time this year in the Corbin era I have seen the Jazz get a first half lead only to piss it away late in the game when it really matters... One thing I do know about our old coach is that if we were in the game against the Lakers, up 6 at the end of the half, he would have these guys ready to play and compete in the 2nd half, and the result in this game at the very least would have been a close game...

I know that a lot of you are rooting for draft picks, but take it from a Vikings fan, the free agent/draft carousel gets old real quick! And draft picks are never a guarantee...

And when you add the fact that no big name free agents want to play here because it's "Utah", you have to be dead on balls accurate with your draft picks, otherwise you're just throwing away time and money...

I like Tyrone, I really do... He's a hard guy to hate really... You can tell that he wants to win, and badly.. But you can also tell that the guy doesn't have what it takes to be a head coach in this league. He exhudes a lack of confidence that you can almost feel... And it permeates to every player on this team, especially late in games... Corbins facial expressions alone tell me that HE believes that this team will blow the game somehow...

If there are players still left on this team that joined the Deron Williams resistance to force Jerry out (and yes, I believe that he is the MAIN reason why Jerry left), I'll bet they are kicking themselves in the rear end right now...

And they should be...

Here is my honest opinion... I really think that Jeff Hornacek is the kind of guy with the knowledge, league experience, and flatlined personality needed to get this team on the right track again... All I see this guy doing is pulling guys aside on the sidelines (especially young players) and instructing them, calming them down, etc. He just "feels" like a head coach to me, whereas Corbin does not...

I would even be all for a "Karl Malone" coming in here and kicking some of these guys in the ***... Sure it might be a grandstanding move, but I think he can teach these guys the "nuances" or "tricks" to succeeding in the NBA if you will, whereas Corbin may be too "politically correct" to go that route...

Sorry, this is a crooked league... And Stockton and Malone etched their names into NBA history forever by taking advantage of that system by doing certain things to get the calls, getting into the oppositions head, etc...

What do you guys think??
 
I think you don't judge a coach who took over mid-season after his best player is traded and up to three starters are out on a rotating basis due to injury. Four players came off the bench. ALL of them rookies.
 
I knew signing Corbin was a big mistake from the start and have stated my opinion here numerous times, but have always been swamped by comments like "Give him a chance, we just lost Deron" or "Give him a full season next year", etc, etc,

Having said that, I do think now that "may be" they extended him for 2 years to give Hornacek time to learn the ropes and then take over. I see what you saw in Hornacek - the calming influence over the team, plus experience and unmatched pedigree.

On a side note - Stockton was watching the game tonight vs Lakers. Wouldn't it be great if eventually Hornacek and Stockton ended up coaching the Jazz ala Sloan and Johnson?
 
Good post. I hate corbin. He is worthless. Why were the starters playing during a blowout. Nows not the time to teach favors a lesson because he committed a stupid foul. Corbin should not be anywhere near our young players.
 
I agree that the coach sets the tone and the personality of the team. Phil Jackson is cool and confident. His players are cool and confident. Greg Popovich is schooled and precise, and his players play the same way. Tom Thibideau is tough defensively, and his team follows suit.

I also think the Jazz need a player that the other players have confidence in to carry them and make the big play. Without a go-to guy, the players don't seem to believe they can close out a game. Losing both Sloan and D.Will has left the team without confidence and without purpose to some degree.
 
Hotttnickkk said:
I knew signing Corbin was a big mistake from the start and have stated my opinion here numerous times, but have always been swamped by comments like "Give him a chance, we just lost Deron" or "Give him a full season next year", etc, etc,

Having said that, I do think now that "may be" they extended him for 2 years to give Hornacek time to learn the ropes and then take over. I see what you saw in Hornacek - the calming influence over the team, plus experience and unmatched pedigree.

On a side note - Stockton was watching the game tonight vs Lakers. Wouldn't it be great if eventually Hornacek and Stockton ended up coaching the Jazz ala Sloan and Johnson?
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Yes, my heart says that Stockton and Hornacek, side by side, would be sweet... But Jeff would have to be the head coach... Is Stockton verbose enough to be?? Or is his demeanor and "anti-social" label just an old wives tale, or was he was a guy who just didn't like the camera??

To say the least, it would be interesting... I would be all for giving it a whirl!
 
You know I have heard that for years about the p0layers reflecting their coach. Sloan was one of the toughfest defensive players to ever play in the NBA. Please explain how that translated to the Jazz players. Yeah we lead or are close to leading the league in fouls every year, it seems, but I don't call soft reach in fouls playing tough. Other teams have given more hard fouls than the Jazz for years and years.
 
Catchall said:
I agree that the coach sets the tone and the personality of the team. Phil Jackson is cool and confident. His players are cool and confident. Greg Popovich is schooled and precise, and his players play the same way. Tom Thibideau is tough defensively, and his team follows suit.

I also think the Jazz need a player that the other players have confidence in to carry them and make the big play. Without a go-to guy, the players don't seem to believe they can close out a game. Losing both Sloan and D.Will has left the team without confidence and without purpose to some degree.
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But have there ever been any real star players that didn't have a good/great head coach?? I understand what you are saying, I really do... But did Kobe Bryant or Shaquille O Neal ever emerge under that stiff Del Harris?? No, they did under Phil Jackson... I could give more examples, but I think you get my point...

We have talent on this team... That's evident, but there is no mental toughness to go with that talent... Some of you may forget but Kobe Bryant, under Del Harris, was taking wide open threes against the Jazz in the Western conference finals that ended up being nothing more than air balls... In fact, neither Kobe nor Shaq ever learned how to finish games until Phil came along...

Would Stockton and Malone be what they were without Jerry and his system?? How about Michael Jordan and the Bulls without Jackson also??

It leaves you wondering whether or not players with talent need a head coach to point them in the direction they need to go... I honestly think they do...

Now, who knows?? Maybe Corbin is like Gregg Popovich and he will "grow" into an elite head coach... But do you really want to wait 5-10 years to see if that happens?? I don't... Because 9 times out of ten, that experiment goes in the opposite direction...

JMO
 
Hanginthere said:
But have there ever been any real star players that didn't have a good/great head coach?? I understand what you are saying, I really do... But did Kobe Bryant or Shaquille O Neal ever emerge under that stiff Del Harris?? No, they did under Phil Jackson... I could give more examples, but I think you get my point...

We have talent on this team... That's evident, but there is no mental toughness to go with that talent... Some of you may forget but Kobe Bryant, under Del Harris, was taking wide open threes against the Jazz in the Western conference finals that ended up being nothing more than air balls... In fact, neither Kobe nor Shaq ever learned how to finish games until Phil came along...

Would Stockton and Malone be what they were without Jerry and his system?? How about Michael Jordan and the Bulls without Jackson also??

It leaves you wondering whether or not players with talent need a head coach to point them in the direction they need to go... I honestly think they do...

Now, who knows?? Maybe Corbin is like Gregg Popovich and he will "grow" into an elite head coach... But do you really want to wait 5-10 years to see if that happens?? I don't... Because 9 times out of ten, that experiment goes in the opposite direction...

JMO
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Which Jazz player is of the quality of Michael Jordan and Shaquille O'neal before they were coached by Jackson?
 
Darkwing Duck said:
Which Jazz player is of the quality of Michael Jordan and Shaquille O'neal before they were coached by Jackson?
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Fair point... But I'll bite...

When certain guys were drafted, who really thought they would be superstars??

I'll tell you what... I didn't think much of Steve Nash and Nowitski when they first came into the league, and a lot of experts shared that same sentiment... How about Michael Olowakandi being touted as the next Russell, or Oden?? We'll go the other way with that synopsis...

What if Hayward is a guy that needs to start and get into the flow of things to get going... For all we know we have another Hornacek keeping the seats warm on the bench for guys like Raja "it doesn't ring anymore" Bell, and CJ "streaky would be an understatement" Miles... Or how about my favorite... Andrei "I think I'm Michael Jordan" Kirilenko...

If our 9th overall pick doesn't get some serious minutes... How will we ever know?? Hopefully now that we are playing for pride, he will get more minutes... But we'll see...

Just some things to think about...
 
Hanginthere said:
Fair point... But I'll bite...

When certain guys were drafted, who really thought they would be superstars??

I'll tell you what... I didn't think much of Steve Nash and Nowitski when they first came into the league, and a lot of experts shared that same sentiment... How about Michael Olowakandi being touted as the next Russell, or Oden?? We'll go the other way with that synopsis...

What if Hayward is a guy that needs to start and get into the flow of things to get going... For all we know we have another Hornacek keeping the seats warm on the bench for guys like Raja "it doesn't ring anymore" Bell, and CJ "streaky would be an understatement" Miles... Or how about my favorite... Andrei "I think I'm Michael Jordan" Kirilenko...

If our 9th overall pick doesn't get some serious minutes... How will we ever know?? Hopefully now that we are playing for pride, he will get more minutes... But we'll see...

Just some things to think about...
Click to expand...

Who was Nash's and Nowitzki's coach when they became good? Were Nash and Nowitzki stars their rookie year? Did they get "serious" minutes as rookies? How would we ever know if those two were star players unless they didn't play "significant" minutes their rookie year and that they were the same star players at age 20 that they were at age 26?
 
Darkwing Duck said:
Who was Nash's and Nowitzki's coach when they became good? Were Nash and Nowitzki stars their rookie year? Did they get "serious" minutes as rookies? How would we ever know if those two were star players unless they didn't play "significant" minutes their rookie year and that they were the same star players at age 20 that they were at age 26?
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Touche... Touche...

Well done Darkwing... I'm speechless...
 
Not only that, but just as players can emerge or not from their rookie seasons, so can coaches. Did Jackson, Popovich, Brown, Riley win the championship in their first season?

Just looked. Popovich went 17-47 his first year. Spurs should have fired him after his first year. Jackson didn't win the championship his first year as head coach, and he had the GOAT.

It's no coincidence that the assumed greatest coaches have had the best players. You've made the argument that these players are the best because of the coaches. Problem is, the players were already top tier. Coaches may use the talent effectively to win, but the best coach is not going to win a title with any team that goes 9-27. You have to have the players. The Jazz do not currently have the players. Simple as that. The Jazz need AT LEAST a season, or at least a new season with healthy players before you make any sort of judgment of a coach.
 
Are you guys serious right now, be honest with yourselves. How bad was this team before Jerry, Phil, and Deron were gone, and you expect them to be better after a Hall of Fame coach and our leading scorer and assist leader are gone, COME ON! Give Tyrone two solid seasons before you can write him off, give him a chance its not like he has any previous experience, Tyrone Corbin will be a great coach just you wait and see, and I am not drinking the koolaide or anything either. So give Ty from not this next season which he will be way better but give him till the allstar break of the season after next, so if we have a shortened season this next season then give him next season and the one after. The signing of the extension is really nothing because all it is saying is the Utah Jazz preach consistancy and trust in their head coaches and not poor talent of players or premadonnas such as Deron Williams. They signed Tyrone to show the players and future players that they really do trust Ty to do a great job and he will with time, and to show who is in charge, because a lame duck coach is good for no one (just a side note just because they signed an extension doesn't mean he can't be fired, which he won't), so please be just take a step back and be patient.

Think of who Tyrone has at his exposer...

Devin Harris - 2nd best point guard on some teams
Raja Bell - come on enough said
Andrei Kirilenko - good at times like 1 in every 10 games
Paul Millsap - 6'7" thats all I have to say (but a keeper because he preaches what this team needs to be about and maybe a starting 3 or a bench 6th man but great trade value)
Al Jefferson - only real player we have in the starting lineup
C.J. Miles - 8th best player on most teams shows up about as much as AK
Earl Watson - terrific 3rd option at PG but pretty good back up worth keeping around can start for like 10 to 20 games out of the season if needed
Derrick Favors - 19 year old rookie, but D Fav is the future of this franchise!
Gordon Hayward - rookie that will be a starter next season
Jeremy Evans - 190 lbs, but has mad hops (like if Millsap and him were just one player we would have an amazing player, but he is great energy bench player, a definite role player we need)
Ronnie Price - A bench shooting guard in a point guard body
Kyle Weaver - Seriously need to look to keep him as another role player off the bench.
Fransisco Elson - 4th or 5th best big on most teams
Kyrylo Fesenko - 4th or 5th best big on most teams, young and could be a great rotational big if he matured more and used his body more like he did against Bynum tonight.
 
Hanginthere said:
Gotta give the guy his props... He threw my own example back at me... Couldn't say much more after that...
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I still think Ty is only there to guide & nurture Hornacek while the young core develops.

Hornacek's the future - mark my word - Hornacek will be Utah's next head coach.

Side note:
Has anyone noticed that Hornacek is actually as tall as Corbin? How weird is that??!!!
 
Every loss is not the coaches fault. We do not have any depth. When we are healthy. I hope Bell, AK, and Price are done for the year. We need these young guys to play and learn. I'm all for Starting Watson,Hayward,Evans,Favors and Fess. I know it will never happen, but hell we are going to lose might as well find out what we have along the way.
 
Hanginthere said:
...
Sorry, this is a crooked league... And Stockton and Malone etched their names into NBA history forever by taking advantage of that system by doing certain things to get the calls, getting into the oppositions head, etc...

What do you guys think??
Click to expand...

I think Stockton and Malone would have won 2 to 4 championships if their teams got a fair shake from the refs.\
It is your stereotype that doomed them.
 
Hanginthere said:
Extending Tyrone Corbin was a HUGE mistake...

Time after time this year in the Corbin era I have seen the Jazz get a first half lead only to piss it away late in the game when it really matters... One thing I do know about our old coach is that if we were in the game against the Lakers, up 6 at the end of the half, he would have these guys ready to play and compete in the 2nd half, and the result in this game at the very least would have been a close game...
Click to expand...

numerous players, both on the Jazz and on the opponents, have noted that it was easy to get off to a good lead on the Jazz to start the game because the Jazz under Jerry Sloan were so predictable...

several members of opposing teams have recently been quoted saying that it's much tougher to start the games against the current Jazz because both the players and the system are unfamiliar - - but once the opponents get a quarter or two under their belts, they're able to make the necessary adjustments



...Jeff Hornacek is the kind of guy with the knowledge, league experience, and flatlined personality needed to get this team on the right track again... All I see this guy doing is pulling guys aside on the sidelines (especially young players) and instructing them, calming them down, etc. He just "feels" like a head coach to me, whereas Corbin does not...
Click to expand...

but isn't that just the role Ty was playing when he was the assistant under Sloan? Several sources stated they were pleased with the choice of Corbin as head coach because he seemed to be more of a "player's coach" than Jerry. I think the behavior changes somewhat as the roles change - - it's a sort of "good cop, bad cop" routine
 
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