Process vs. Results and the best nickname ever.

[jazzfan1971]

There are two ways to judge a team in my mind. Process or Results.

When teams get graded for an offseason it usually comes down to the grader favoring one over the other. Jazz get high marks this offseason if you only look at process. Terrible marks if you only look at results.

One would hope that continual strong process will lead to strong results.

I'm just not sure it does. Or maybe I'm just not good at judging process.

From where I'm sitting the Jazz are doing things right. Smart drafting, smart trading, good front office, good player development, good scouting, good coaching, etc...

I don't really know where to fault them from a process standpoint. It's the results that are disappointing.

And I don't really know why.

The Jazz can't seem to translate process into results. Maybe it's just luck. Bad luck. Or maybe I just have Jazz colored glasses on and think everything they do is wonderful because they are the team I love.

So, I'm disapponted with results. But, even sitting here in my armchair with the benefit of hindsight I have a lot of trouble saying where the Jazz went wrong. Or more importantly, how to change the process to get better results in the future.

I guess that's my question for you folks. What changes to process do you think the Jazz could realistically make to see better results?


And the best nickname ever? "**** Kancer". (stolen from the NY forum on realgm) I can't believe **** is filtered. The opening at the end of the alimentary canal through which solid wast matter leaves the body.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Why are the results disappointing? Last season we made it back to the playoffs and won a series. We lost to GS who everyone lost to. Last seasons results were very good.

This season so far we are doing great. The only reason people have had a melt down is we lost to the Suns. Yes, that sucked but teams lose to lesser teams. Even the best teams lose to low level teams, it happens. There is still a lot of talent on every NBA team. We have a winning record and this team has not even gelled yet.

 

[LogGrad98]

I thought Penis Cancer was a better nickname anyway.

 

[jazzfan1971]

Why are the results disappointing? Last season we made it back to the playoffs and won a series. We lost to GS who everyone lost to. Last seasons results were very good.

This season so far we are doing great. The only reason people have had a melt down is we lost to the Suns. Yes, that sucked but teams lose to lesser teams. Even the best teams lose to low level teams, it happens. There is still a lot of talent on every NBA team. We have a winning record and this team has not even gelled yet.

Successful process would result in a championship. I don't think it unreasonable to expect 37 years of strong process to net one title. If the process is indeed strong.

12 teams in the league have never won a title. The Jazz are the 3rd oldest of that group. Only Sacramento and Phoenix have been less successful over time at chasing a ring than the Jazz. I think that's what I mean when I talk about being disappointed with results. The Jazz are in the bottom 10% when it comes to title success.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Successful process would result in a championship. I don't think it unreasonable to expect 37 years of strong process to net one title. If the process is indeed strong.

12 teams in the league have never won a title. The Jazz are the 3rd oldest of that group. Only Sacramento and Phoenix have been less successful over time at chasing a ring than the Jazz. I think that's what I mean when I talk about being disappointed with results. The Jazz are in the bottom 10% when it comes to title success.

Oh, so only a championship is good enough? Well I really hope for one as well but its unlikely. You will probably continue to be disappointed unless the Jazz get lucky. Unless we luck out and draft the best player in the NBA like Cleveland, GS and Spurs did we dont really have much of a chance.

We definitely missed an opportunity with Malone and Stockton. We should have got 1 one of those years.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Successful process would result in a championship. I don't think it unreasonable to expect 37 years of strong process to net one title. If the process is indeed strong.

12 teams in the league have never won a title. The Jazz are the 3rd oldest of that group. Only Sacramento and Phoenix have been less successful over time at chasing a ring than the Jazz. I think that's what I mean when I talk about being disappointed with results. The Jazz are in the bottom 10% when it comes to title success.

There are 30 teams.

???

The Jazz are a great organization but there are obviously a lot of other variables. The Jazz have never had the most pure talent, and they've never been a free agent destination. If anything, I think it's a miracle there's an NBA team in Utah at all, and by most criterion, the Jazz have had better results than most franchises.

I reject the notion that the only thing that matters in competition is to be the best. I embrace that competition is about competing and being the best iteration a thing can be. The Jazz are elite in that aspect and I'm done feeling shame about facing and putting up the greatest resistance to one of the greatest teams of all time, twice.

 

[LoPo]

Honestly, I think the biggest mistake has been our inability to evaluate our own talent.

For example, we let Wes Matthews, Paul Millsap, Kyle Korver, Demarre Carroll and others just simply leave. We didn't value them enough although all of them had at least 5 productive years after they left.

2ndly, and I'm not being personal, is Derrick Favors. Just think about it. We traded an All Star in Deron for a deal built around Favors. AK, a former All Star, left the summer after we traded for Favors. We let a future multiple All Star (Millsap) leave because we valued Favors more. We lost an equally good big in Kanter because the fit just wasn't there. Our undying belief in a decent but not great and definitely not elite PF has steered us wrong for the better part of a decade. And we are about to let him walk for nothing...


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[Ron Mexico]

Honestly, I think the biggest mistake has been our inability to evaluate our own talent.

For example, we let Wes Matthews, Paul Millsap, Kyle Korver, Demarre Carroll and others just simply leave. We didn't value them enough although all of them had at least 5 productive years after they left.

2ndly, and I'm not being personal, is Derrick Favors. Just think about it. We traded an All Star in Deron for a deal built around Favors. AK, a former All Star, left the summer after we traded for Favors. We let a future multiple All Star (Millsap) leave because we valued Favors more. We lost an equally good big in Kanter because the fit just wasn't there. Our undying belief in a decent but not great and definitely not elite PF has steered us wrong for the better part of a decade. And we are about to let him walk for nothing...


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We also got Rubio out of the Kanter trade. Trading DWill was definitely a good move. Dwill went downhill quick.

As far as the rest of those guys go, it was a decent move. Had we kept them we would not have got a few higher picks and would not have won enough to matter. They would have simply kept us in the playoffs just to lose in the first round.

Kyle Korver is not a player the Jazz could bring back after he screwed over the Jazz for selfish reasons.

Millsap seemingly wanted to go and we needed to find out what we had in Kanter and Favors. But I think you over value Millsap and undervalue Favors.

Wes Matthews was a bad deal. We should have matched that deal.

But again none of those players are difference makers. We have our best chance in a long time in having this team turn into something. We have to get lucky. We got lucky with Gobert. We are hoping to get lucky with Mitchell and we are still hoping Exum pans out to be good. If we 2 more all-star level players to go with Gobert and solid starters and bench around them we could really make a run. Will we win it all with them? Probably not but we might get lucky.

 

[JFFR]

We definitely missed an opportunity with Malone and Stockton. We should have got 1 one of those years.

From 1991 to 2007, 6 teams won a championship. Four of those teams had either Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, or Duncan. One of those teams had Olajuwon, but probably wouldn't have won if Jordan hadn't retired. The last team won when Shaq and Kobe had a meltdown.

[MENTION=1902]jazzfan1971[/MENTION] - do you really not know why this process isn't working?

Here's the reason why. It is EXTREMELY difficult to win an NBA championship in the modern NBA.

2008 to 2017 doesn't get much better. LeBron, Kobe, Celtics, and Curry, won all but one of those.

In the past 26 years (and you could probably go back further) a team oriented basketball organization has one it twice. And those teams had pretty special players as well. The Pistons had a defensive superstar in Ben Wallace and the Mavs had Dirk at his peak. I don't know if Gobert can measure up.

Crazy things have to happen for the Jazz to compete for a championship. After the crazy things happen, the stars have to align. It's next to impossible. Basketball isn't soccer where a team can overcome long odds (keep in mind, there are multiple seven game series teams have to get through.)

 

[Ron Mexico]

From 1991 to 2007, 6 teams won a championship. Four of those teams had either Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, or Duncan. One of those teams had Olajuwon, but probably wouldn't have won if Jordan hadn't retired. The last team won when Shaq and Kobe had a meltdown.

Yep they had tough competition but we had 2 HOFers on the team. The Jazz chocked multiple times in that period, especially the years Jordan wasnt around. If we had gone the Pops route and rested our star players and had them healthy for the playoffs I think we would have got 1 chip.

 

[jazzfan1971]

From 1991 to 2007, 6 teams won a championship. Four of those teams had either Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, or Duncan. One of those teams had Olajuwon, but probably wouldn't have won if Jordan hadn't retired. The last team won when Shaq and Kobe had a meltdown.

[MENTION=1902]jazzfan1971[/MENTION] - do you really not know why this process isn't working?

Here's the reason why. It is EXTREMELY difficult to win an NBA championship in the modern NBA.

2008 to 2017 doesn't get much better. LeBron, Kobe, Celtics, and Curry, won all but one of those.

In the past 26 years (and you could probably go back further) a team oriented basketball organization has one it twice. And those teams had pretty special players as well. The Pistons had a defensive superstar in Ben Wallace and the Mavs had Dirk at his peak. I don't know if Gobert can measure up.

Crazy things have to happen for the Jazz to compete for a championship. After the crazy things happen, the stars have to align. It's next to impossible. Basketball isn't soccer where a team can overcome long odds (keep in mind, there are multiple seven game series teams have to get through.)

I'm not saying it isn't difficult. I'm saying only 2 teams have had a less successful run. 18 other teams have found a way to accomplish the extremely difficult, I don't think it is unfair to wonder why we have been unable.

 

[Archie Moses]

My money is on Trout being the reason **** is filtered for over using it.

 

[jazzfan1971]

My money is on Trout being the reason **** is filtered for over using it.

Yeah, not sure how that is filtered when penis isn't.

 

[JGolds]

To put it simple... Jazz are a Player Farm. We nurture and help players reach potential. Milsap, Carrol, Haywierd, Mathews, and many others who left and lost it all. We are a team other teams dont trade with because as soon as the player is ripe for the picking the other teams know said player will look for bigger pastures.

This post brought to you by JGolds

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

And the best nickname ever? "**** Kancer". (stolen from the NY forum on realgm) I can't believe **** is filtered. The opening at the end of the alimentary canal through which solid wast matter leaves the body.

I've been calling him anes Kantcer since he demanded a trade, as have a lot of other jazz fans. If that was on the knick's forum, they got it from one of us.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

My problem with this thread is that it is beyond the pale to give credit to Knick Nation for anything useful, noteworthy, or of good report.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

There were significant mistakes made in the KOC days... just the general retool not rebuild was the biggest mistake... there will always be individual mistakes. Hell GS cleared cap room for Dwight Howard (ended up with AI)and if David Lee never gets hurt maybe Draymond never happens. There were rumors that GS would have acquired DWill for that scrawny oft injured Curry kid.

Look... you have to have a plan and get really damned lucky. I have faith that our management team has a good plan... now we need to get really damned lucky. We need DM to be a star and Rudy to continue to get better and stay healthy. Need another pick to hit as well and maybe land a key value free agent.

The results of our current process are solid. Success can't just be measured in championships. Otherwise every process is basically a failure.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

From 1991 to 2007, 6 teams won a championship. Four of those teams had either Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, or Duncan. One of those teams had Olajuwon, but probably wouldn't have won if Jordan hadn't retired. The last team won when Shaq and Kobe had a meltdown.

[MENTION=1902]jazzfan1971[/MENTION] - do you really not know why this process isn't working?

Here's the reason why. It is EXTREMELY difficult to win an NBA championship in the modern NBA.

2008 to 2017 doesn't get much better. LeBron, Kobe, Celtics, and Curry, won all but one of those.

In the past 26 years (and you could probably go back further) a team oriented basketball organization has one it twice. And those teams had pretty special players as well. The Pistons had a defensive superstar in Ben Wallace and the Mavs had Dirk at his peak. I don't know if Gobert can measure up.

Crazy things have to happen for the Jazz to compete for a championship. After the crazy things happen, the stars have to align. It's next to impossible. Basketball isn't soccer where a team can overcome long odds (keep in mind, there are multiple seven game series teams have to get through.)

Donovan Mitchell is in the building! Perhaps he is the best all round player in one of the best drafts in a decade. Tatum will score more. Ball will setup more. But D Mitch has already lead us or at least sparked us to 3 wins IMHO. Is this the start of a turn for us? We have him for at least the next 7 years barring anything crazy.

I am definitely drinking the koolaid, but he really does look to be somewhere between Damian Lillard lite on offense and Kawhi lite on defense. That's a pretty unique player we just got folks.

 

[whatthe]

There are two ways to judge a team in my mind. Process or Results.

When teams get graded for an offseason it usually comes down to the grader favoring one over the other. Jazz get high marks this offseason if you only look at process. Terrible marks if you only look at results.

One would hope that continual strong process will lead to strong results.

I'm just not sure it does. Or maybe I'm just not good at judging process.

From where I'm sitting the Jazz are doing things right. Smart drafting, smart trading, good front office, good player development, good scouting, good coaching, etc...

I don't really know where to fault them from a process standpoint. It's the results that are disappointing.

And I don't really know why.

The Jazz can't seem to translate process into results. Maybe it's just luck. Bad luck. Or maybe I just have Jazz colored glasses on and think everything they do is wonderful because they are the team I love.

So, I'm disapponted with results. But, even sitting here in my armchair with the benefit of hindsight I have a lot of trouble saying where the Jazz went wrong. Or more importantly, how to change the process to get better results in the future.

I guess that's my question for you folks. What changes to process do you think the Jazz could realistically make to see better results?


And the best nickname ever? "**** Kancer". (stolen from the NY forum on realgm) I can't believe **** is filtered. The opening at the end of the alimentary canal through which solid wast matter leaves the body.

The Process vs. Results. The third option - the Blender. Just throw bodies, depth, and defense and hope something sticks. Plus it works as a nickname. Donovan Mitchell - the Blender. Thabo - the Blender. Udoh - the Blender, etc.

 

[LoPo]

We also got Rubio out of the Kanter trade. Trading DWill was definitely a good move. Dwill went downhill quick.

As far as the rest of those guys go, it was a decent move. Had we kept them we would not have got a few higher picks and would not have won enough to matter. They would have simply kept us in the playoffs just to lose in the first round.

Kyle Korver is not a player the Jazz could bring back after he screwed over the Jazz for selfish reasons.

Millsap seemingly wanted to go and we needed to find out what we had in Kanter and Favors. But I think you over value Millsap and undervalue Favors.

Wes Matthews was a bad deal. We should have matched that deal.

But again none of those players are difference makers. We have our best chance in a long time in having this team turn into something. We have to get lucky. We got lucky with Gobert. We are hoping to get lucky with Mitchell and we are still hoping Exum pans out to be good. If we 2 more all-star level players to go with Gobert and solid starters and bench around them we could really make a run. Will we win it all with them? Probably not but we might get lucky.

If we had traded Favors before we let Millsap go, we would have been a contender. Millsap has been a damn good ball player and Favors could have netted us a very good asset because his "potential". If we had Millsap over Favors the last 5 years, our team looks a lot different. Millsap next to Gobert and Hayward is a dream 3, 4 and 5.

We spent so much to prioritize Kanter and Favors that we got rid of the best one. Hell, Kanter would have been a better guy to keep in hindsight. He fits next to Gobert.

Carroll, Wes and Korver are really, really good players. All have had better careers and winning teams than Favors. Its harsh but true. We planned to build around one guy with no loyalty (Gordo) and another who was just never that good (Fave).

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