Nikola Mirotic

[infection]

To get the thing that you want. If someone else out bids you then you don’t get the thing that you want. The thing goes to the highest bidder. At least that’s how I understand bidding/auctions.

What you don’t want to do is out bid yourself or overpay.

If he goes somewhere it's for a pick in the 20s. We can beat that by at least not sending back bad salary.

Yup, we disagree here on how much we are willing to give for Mirotic

Yes, indeed. Many people skeptical about possible consistency issues with Mirotic, but very few people questioning the consistency of 'A Player to be Named Later."

 

[latin jazz]

To get the thing that you want. If someone else out bids you then you don’t get the thing that you want. The thing goes to the highest bidder. At least that’s how I understand bidding/auctions.

What you don’t want to do is out bid yourself or overpay.

True, but if the other teams can only offer a top 18 or top 20, you don't offer a pick which is likely to be a top 10. Teams will get a better sense of their picks and relative position within their conference closer to the deadline. Detroit is two spots behind the 5th place. Portland is in the same position. The Jazz pick is waaaay better than those so it makes sense to involve a third team in order to avoid overpaying (or wait a bit to get a sense of Niko's market). That's why it's been mentioned trading for Niko was not going to be easy.

 

[fishonjazz]

Lindsey has gambled with 2 FRPs in the last two years, and the results are that Utah is currently sitting well out of the playoffs. At this point, if he gives up a lottery pick for a guy with one year left on his contract, his head should be on the chopping block if things don't work out.

Utah is not in a position to be trading away picks for short term improvement. It shouldn't even be a question. Besides that, if DL was dumb enough to give up our pick this year, that trade would have happened by now.

Some people are overvaluing this guy based on a recent shooting streak, when the reality is that he's almost certainly going to come back down to the guy his career #s say he is.

If only we would have kept our pick instead of traded it for George Hill. Then we might have timothe luwawu cabarrot (a guy lots of jazz fanzers, myself included, wanted with that pick) and his 6 points and 1.6 rebounds per game along with his 38% shooting and his 30% 3 point shooting.

We would probably be competing for home court advantage in the playoffs if only we had him.

 

[Ron Mexico]

True, but if the other teams can only offer a top 18 or top 20, you don't offer a pick which is likely to be a top 10. Teams will get a better sense of their picks and relative position within their conference closer to the deadline. Detroit is two spots behind the 5th place. Portland is in the same position. The Jazz pick is waaaay better than those so it makes sense to involve a third team in order to avoid overpaying. That's why it's been mentioned trading for Niko was not going to be easy.

You are assuming that we will stay that low. We are getting our best player last year back in Gobert. We are getting Exum back. We played the second toughest schedule in the NBA already with a lot of new players in a new system. I think it is a safe bet we have a better record going forward then we have to this point. Unless we make trades and the FO really goes full tank. But I am doubtful that happens.

We can also put protections on the pick and we should do that. I know that prevents us from a hypothetical future trade but that is a risk well worth it to get a player that fits well and is playing at a really high level. There are not many stretch 4s that can shoot at this level that can also rebound and handle the ball and drive a bit, especially that are available.

Mirotic is not worth a top 10 pick. But we probably wont have a top 10 pick and we definitely can put restrictions on the pick to prevent giving up a pick that good.

 

[fishonjazz]

very few people questioning the consistency of 'A Player to be Named Later."

This.

 

[latin jazz]

If only we would have kept our pick instead of traded it for George Hill. Then we might have timothe luwawu cabarrot (a guy lots of jazz fanzers, myself included, wanted with that pick) and his 6 points and 1.6 rebounds per game along with his 38% shooting and his 30% 3 point shooting.

We would probably be competing for home court advantage in the playoffs if only we had him.

At the time it made sense. We went all in to retain Hayward. Same goes for Rubio. In hindsight we all are regret those moves.

I don't see DL trading this year's first

 

[latin jazz]

You are assuming that we will stay that low. We are getting our best player last year back in Gobert. We are getting Exum back. We played the second toughest schedule in the NBA already with a lot of new players in a new system. I think it is a safe bet we have a better record going forward then we have to this point. Unless we make trades and the FO really goes full tank. But I am doubtful that happens.

We can also put protections on the pick and we should do that. I know that prevents us from a hypothetical future trade but that is a risk well worth it to get a player that fits well and is playing at a really high level. There are not many stretch 4s that can shoot at this level that can also rebound and handle the ball and drive a bit, especially that are available.

Mirotic is not worth a top 10 pick. But we probably wont have a top 10 pick and we definitely can put restrictions on the pick to prevent giving up a pick that good.

Yes, we are making different assumptions about how good we are going to be for the rest of the season. Maybe it takes Gobert a couple of weeks to get in basketball shape. It is also likely that Favors and some of the non-guaranteed deals are traded too. We are 5 spots outside the playoffs, 10th on a 9th team race. We can improve but I am a bit pessimistic for the rest of the season.

 

[infection]

At the time it made sense. We went all in to retain Hayward. Same goes for Rubio. In hindsight we all are regret those moves.

I don't see DL trading this year's first

Neither do I, which I find unfortunate. GH deal I feel was a no brainer and worked out well even though he left. The Rubio deal was stupid in hindsight, foresight, and even no-sight. We need to appraise all deals independently. This is much more solid than the Rubio trade but can’t pass it up just because we **** the bed on that deal. It’s like betting on the outcome of a coin flip based on what happened the past 5 flips.

 

[latin jazz]

The Rubio deal was stupid in hindsight, foresight, and even no-sight

Lol. At the beginning I was excited for the move. Oh man, how wrong I was

 

[infection]

Lol. At the beginning I was excited for the move. Oh man, how wrong I was

Well, if it's reassuring to you I absolutely hated the move. So if I say move a first for him, perhaps that will be as good as the Rubio trade was bad.

 

[latin jazz]

Well, if it's reassuring to you I absolutely hated the move. So if I say move a first for him, perhaps that will be as good as the Rubio trade was bad.

Didn't you just say we need to appraise all deals independently?

 

[infection]

Did you just say we need to appraise all deals independently?

Yes.

Question: Is Mirotic worth a 20-30 pick?
Answer: Yes.
Solution: Trade one for him.
Red herring: But we traded one for Rubio and GH!

 

[mellow]

So what if I don't think he is worth a 20-30 pick?

 

[latin jazz]

Yes.

Question: Is Mirotic worth a 20-30 pick?
Answer: Yes.
Solution: Trade it one for him.
Red herring: But we traded one for Rubio and GH!

And we don't pick in the 20s. Third team needs to be involved or protections attached. We've been over this. Could happen but it's unlikely

 

[latin jazz]

So what if I don't think he is worth a 20-30 pick?

Then we wait for his price to drop or get him once he becomes a FA

 

[Jack Strop]

If we use our first to get Mirotic and dump a bad contract like Burks', then we can use Favors and JoeJ to get another first. I'm not saying we go first-less in this draft. I'm just saying get a guy who seems to fit need, likes the staff, and should have staying power.

So give up a Donovan Mitchell (or at least a player with all-star potential at a rookie price) and draft a guy like Lydon with a pick in the 20's.

You at least need to lottery-protect the pick. There are chances to get high-end starters all the way through the lottery. Can the Jazz jump into the playoffs? Yes. But it' more likely, IMO, that they don't make up the 5 game deficit.

Chicago is just hoping DL panics. If ANY team had offered a 1st, Mirotic would have already been out the door. Chicago is only hurting their own draft position by winning with Nikola. I'm sure DL has put an offer on the table. Chicago will start feeling some heat from ownership to get a deal done. There's no way they pick up his option for next year. DL might be able to just sign him as a FA if Chicago whiffs on a trade.

 

[radiohegel]

Yes.

Question: Is Mirotic worth a 20-30 pick?
Answer: Yes.
Solution: Trade it one for him.
Red herring: But we traded one for Rubio and GH!

Saying the George Hill trade is irrelevent to this situation is really foolish. George Hill was an excellent fit on the Jazz, and a better player than Mirotic. The only reason it can be argued a poor trade in hindsight is the fact that the Jazz didn't gain longterm team control in the deal, and Hill ended up walking. That's definitely applicable to the current situation.

I know everyone is getting excited about Mirotic being intrigued by the Jazz, but you have to remember that that's literally just it - he is reported to be 'intrigued' (and we don't even have an actual quote from him to get a sense of the context). All of a sudden fans are making this giant leap and translating that into Mirotic really liking the coaching staff and organization, and using that supposition as evidence indicating he will stay. That's a breakdown of logic; not using the outcome of the George Hill trade to inform our current decision.

I would probably agree that Mirotic would be worth a 20-30 pick. That is not an asset the Jazz have, so there isn't a conversation to be had. A first round pick with top-20 protection is a very different asset, because of the multi-year future trade restrictions it comes with. Think of it like the non-player trade asset equivalent of taking on bad contracts. It really limits your flexibility down the road.

If the Jazz had a late first round pick, I'd be all for sending it to Chicago. I don't think it's nearly as clear a decision when what we're giving up is years of trade flexibility (that very well could extend beyond Mirotic even being in Utah, at that).

 

[infection]

It's all risk and benefit. Is there risk to locking up a couple years with a protected pick that becomes untradable at different points? Yes. Is there a risk of becoming hypoglycemic for a diabetic using insulin? Yes. Should that mean they shouldn't use it? The equivalent statement we're making about being preoccupied with losing flexibility would be like "well they could die if they become too hypoglycemic, so I view that as pretty significant."

If we trade our pick this year with a top 20 protection, then we can trade that pick any time the top 10 records get clenched and can trade that all the way up until the draft. Same thing for the following year. It doesn't mean you CAN'T trade it, it just puts some limits on it.

 

[Dali]

If only we would have kept our pick instead of traded it for George Hill. Then we might have timothe luwawu cabarrot (a guy lots of jazz fanzers, myself included, wanted with that pick) and his 6 points and 1.6 rebounds per game along with his 38% shooting and his 30% 3 point shooting.

We would probably be competing for home court advantage in the playoffs if only we had him.

Ah I see that Fish has no TLC towards TLC.

Understandable though, he has been total poop.

 

[radiohegel]

It's all risk and benefit. Is there risk to locking up a couple years with a protected pick that becomes untradable at different points? Yes. Is there a risk of becoming hypoglycemic for a diabetic using insulin? Yes. Should that mean they shouldn't use it? The equivalent statement we're making about being preoccupied with losing flexibility would be like "well they could die if they become too hypoglycemic, so I view that as pretty significant."

If we trade our pick this year with a top 20 protection, then we can trade that pick any time the top 10 records get clenched and can trade that all the way up until the draft. Same thing for the following year. It doesn't mean you CAN'T trade it, it just puts some limits on it.

wtf are you talking about? The Jazz aren't going to ****ing die if they don't trade for Mirotic...

If you really want to start digging up analogies, a better one would be taking out a mortgage so you can invest in a promising company.

And no, you can't trade a pick just because the top ten records get clenched, because you then hypothetically owe the next year's pick. Furthermore, when have you ever seen the top ten records clenched by a tradedeadline?