Hayward Question

[AlaskanAssassin]

NBA position names should be changed to Bigs, Wings, and Points. Then we could stop arguing over the subtle differences in C and PF or SG and SF.

Offensively, SG and SF do virtually the same thing within the Jazz offense. Defensively, there are plenty of SG who are too fast for Hayward, and plenty of PF who are too big. That's what the NBA is about, creating mismatches. He's a wing.

 

[LogGrad98]

He is not. His wingspan is shorter than his height in shoes. He isn't that athletic either, quite pedestrian in that regard. Because of these factors, it's a testament to his intelligence, instincts, and commitment to defense. Those things matter, and if Hayward keeps working like he has he will be one of the most versatile players in the league.

I don't know if Hayward really works as a full-time 2 for the same reasons I don't think Millsap works as a full-time 3; speed. I think Hayward's true NBA position will be 3, but that doesn't mean he can't play 2. I don't think it's important to get a SF for sake of getting a SF in this draft. But since the SG field is thin and there seem to be a glut of SF candidates, then drafting one seems natural if we want to see how Hayward as a 2 works out.

At his height and even his sub-standard reach he is a long player at the 2. You don't need a standing reach of 12 feet to be considered long at the 2 spot. Need to remember points of comparison. I also didn't say athletic (although I think you sorely under-rate him in that area). What I said was quick. He showed at the end of the season that he has a quicker first step and was quicker to get back to his defensive assignment than we originally saw from him. That will get better with his intelligence and hard work you mentioned.

And I disagree with you about speed being his limiting factor. He showed in flashes that he is every bit fast enough to keep up with the top level 2's in the league. Maybe not in an all-out sprint, but around the basket and staying in front of his man he is plenty fast enough to play the 2.

You have got to be kidding me? He will never be an elite defender. NEVER. That is not to say he can be an ok to above average defender, but never elite.

I never said he WOULD be an elite defender, but he has the tools. And why couldn't he? What did Bowen have that Hayward lacks? Lateral quickness? Bowen was not all that quick. Was it size? Hayward is taller and can get just as strong. No most elite level defenders put in the work. That is usually the defining characteristic. So show me why he couldn't develop that ability.

I really think people are just remebering that one time he guarded an old Kobe pretty good, but are somehow forgetting all the other times he got abused.

I think you are forgetting it was the first chance he had all season, in his ROOKIE YEAR, to get real minutes. And he showed some great potential and improvement from even just a month or 2 before. For a rookie to put a game like that against LA together with the limited time he has had says something. By the end of this season he was easily looking better than any other wing we have on the team. He has one trait in spades that trumps CJ all day every day: he is fearless and mentally strong. That is a big part of the game.

I think he has the talent and the physical gifts to be something special at the 2 or 3. That is why I think he can be the all-around wing we need. If he puts in the work he could be a top-level player at those positions.

He is of course not like a Kobe or LBJ who would be top 5 players in the league just coasting by on their insane talent and athleticism. But he has a solid enough combination of talent and athleticism that, with the work, he could be approaching that rarified air in his career.

 

[BENTLEY]

Raja needs to be traded. Minny's the only team that seems to want him. If Raja remains with the team this next year it won't change the fact that this next year in not a year I expect the Jazz to contend for anything, but it's a year to get guys experience playing together while evaluating the pieces. 2012 will bring in more pieces and then the Jazz will have their core more settled. As of now collect assets, let 'em play together awhile, and then make decisions who to trade and who to target in drafts/FA.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Raja needs to be traded. Minny's the only team that seems to want him. If Raja remains with the team this next year it won't change the fact that this next year in not a year I expect the Jazz to contend for anything, but it's a year to get guys experience playing together while evaluating the pieces. 2012 will bring in more pieces and then the Jazz will have their core more settled. As of now collect assets, let 'em play together awhile, and then make decisions who to trade and who to target in drafts/FA.

Agreed. But what the H does this have to do with the thread?

 

[NAOS]

On topic: Hayward plays better at the 2. He's like a second pg and he's better creating with the ball in his hand. You don't have that if he's playing the 3.

Why?
You are aware, I'm sure, that the term "point forward" refers to people who are playing forward.

 

[honz]

I'm absolutely sure we have no idea who Hayward can defend in the pros yet. It's amazing how one game defending Kobe, who doesn't drive anymore, has definitively determined what he can do. I hope he can play the 2 because that would give us great length at the position. But I suspect he's going to sort himself out as a 3. That makes the most sense anyway since Raja has to get his 42 minutes somewhere.

It was more than one game. He showed the ability to keep PG's out of the lane consistently when asked to guard them.

 

[BENTLEY]

I was just trying to get back on topic so I was coming up with something that seemed relevant. I don't really care where he plays. I'm still not sure about Hayward but there's stuff to be optimistic about.

 

[billyshelby]

It was more than one game. He showed the ability to keep PG's out of the lane consistently when asked to guard them.

Are you actually suggesting Hayward could effectively guard PG's? I assume you mean SG's, and he had plenty of trouble guarding them. Doesn't mean he can't, or that he didn't play well some nights, but by no means did he do anything that would suggest he has defensive ace in his makeup. I'm just hoping he can adequately defend 2's. Anything more than that is gravy.

 

[Ben10]

Are you actually suggesting Hayward could effectively guard PG's? I assume you mean SG's, and he had plenty of trouble guarding them. Doesn't mean he can't, or that he didn't play well some nights, but by no means did he do anything that would suggest he has defensive ace in his makeup. I'm just hoping he can adequately defend 2's. Anything more than that is gravy.

Billy I hardly ever disagree with anything you post but I think your a little off here. I watched every game last year except 2 and Hayward's ability to stay in front of his man in one on one situations was well above average. I saw him switch multipule times on to a PG and stay in front of him not letting him drive. Hayward had some tough games last year and was lost on Offense and in transition at times. But when it came to playing strait up defense he impressed me all year. Its one of the little things that he did well at the start of the year that convinced me he could be a good palyer. I think he has what it takes to be a very good defender.

 

[billyshelby]

I'm not saying Hayward didn't play well at times. I'm saying we saw very little of Hayward guarding starting 2's, and he definitely had his troubles even in the last two weeks when he played his best. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's a bad defender. I'm just not sure he can handle a steady diet of NBA 2's night in and night out. I'm a lot more worried about our Team D, anyway. If we shore that up, I think Hayward will fit into a defensive system very well.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Billy I hardly ever disagree with anything you post but I think your a little off here. I watched every game last year except 2 and Hayward's ability to stay in front of his man in one on one situations was well above average. I saw him switch multipule times on to a PG and stay in front of him not letting him drive. Hayward had some tough games last year and was lost on Offense and in transition at times. But when it came to playing strait up defense he impressed me all year. Its one of the little things that he did well at the start of the year that convinced me he could be a good palyer. I think he has what it takes to be a very good defender.

Good points. Hayward did struggle on offense and seemed to underestimate the speed of NBA players as he had a lot of "careless" passes picked off. But the one thing I noticed on defense was his great positioning. He stayed low and moved his feet instead of reaching. And with his height, he can still bother players that will then pull up if their drive is stopped. IMO, Hayward can develop into an upper-tier SG. That said, there will still be players he'll struggle against. But even Deron had problems with smaller, quicker PG's.

 

[vslice02]

Don't think Hayward was great defensively but did display the tools to be an average/quality defender. I think Hayward moves his feet well and does a good job staying between man-and-basket. Thought his biggest problems were when players would iso from the mid or high-post - Hayward was a victim of reaching/grabbing and alot of the nuances dealing with the physicality of the game. A year's experience and not having the rookie bulls-eye on his back could make a huge difference.

 

[honz]

Are you actually suggesting Hayward could effectively guard PG's? I assume you mean SG's, and he had plenty of trouble guarding them. Doesn't mean he can't, or that he didn't play well some nights, but by no means did he do anything that would suggest he has defensive ace in his makeup. I'm just hoping he can adequately defend 2's. Anything more than that is gravy.

I meant to write "PG's"...

 

[Nate505]

I really think people are just remebering that one time he guarded an old Kobe pretty good, but are somehow forgetting all the other times he got abused.

I agree. That being said, I'm curious to see how his defense will improve when he has a year of seasoning under his belt and doesn't get the rookie treatment. I don't think he'll become elite, but I guess there's that outside chance. I do remember people saying that he would be a dreadful defender, and just in his rookie season I thought he progressed past that.