White House Discord: Bob Woodward Book, NYT Op-Ed

[fishonjazz]

And I predict that the next president while be vilified even worse. Deservingly or not.

How and why though? There is no way the next president will do as many things as trump to get criticized for so there is no way they will be vilified even worse.
You act as if liberals are just making stuff up about trump all the time. And that liberals are making trump out to be the devil.
Trump is the one doing, saying, and tweeting these things.
The next president won’t do, say, and tweet the things trump does.

 

[Stoked]

How and why though? There is no way the next president will do as many things as trump to get criticized for so there is no way they will be vilified even worse.
You act as if liberals are just making stuff up about trump all the time. And that liberals are making trump out to be the devil.
Trump is the one doing, saying, and tweeting these things.
The next president won’t do, say, and tweet the things trump does.

No, I do not think the next president will be anywhere even close to what Trump is. But I do think the precedent has been set and he will be slandered endlessly by the opposing party. Look at the slow ratcheting up of attacks. Both in number and viciousness since Clinton.

And yes, liberals (I’m talking most the party loyal, politicians and allied media outlets) are as quick to malign, misrepresent and lie to suit their needs as conservatives.

With Trump we just have the unfortunate situation of them not having to because he’s that bad.

 

[Red]

I see both sides willing to do that. Trump rarely gives the Ds a reason to invent. But they willingly engage in dramatic hysterics as well. Like Sen. Harris intentionally misquoting Kavanaugh to assign him a policy position that wasn’t his.

Keep in mind it was Planned Parenthood that spread the quote that left out "they said". Admittedly, I don't know what role Harris played at that point, so I may be off base, but Planned Parenthood issued an acknowledgement that took responsibility for the misquote.

 

[Stoked]

Keep in mind it was Planned Parenthood that spread the quote that left out "they said". Admittedly, I don't know what role Harris played at that point, so I may be off base, but Planned Parenthood issued an acknowledgement that took responsibility for the misquote.

From what I had read it was the other way around. Harris issues the quote with the key omissions and planned parenthood picked it up.

Interesting.

 

[Red]

From what I had read it was the other way around. Harris issues the quote with the key omissions and planned parenthood picked it up.

Interesting.

OK, I'll assume you have it right. I have not examined how it played out to a sufficient degree.

 

[Red]

And I predict that the next president while be vilified even worse. Deservingly or not.

Not sure why you’re trying to attack trump to me. F him. Just a train wreck. He still fits the pattern.

I know you've clarified your thoughts further, but just to address the degree of vilification we may see:

Sorry to repeat a quote I already posted, but to make a point, I will. From the Washington Post article on page 4 of this thread:

"......one remarkable thing about Trump is that he never appeals to the better angels of our nature. He never asks Americans to be thoughtful, or generous, or kind, or empathetic, or considerate, or inclusive. Since Trump possesses none of those virtues, he can’t bring himself to demand them of others.

What he does instead is appeal to what is worst in people, like their fear and hatred and bigotry. This is the place where Trump truly has a touch of political genius: He can see into the dark depths of the American soul, find the ugliest things lying there, and wrench them up to the surface."

It really does not require one be a liberal, a registered Democrat one's entire life, or giving into inflexible tribal politics to recognize the severe character flaws denoted by the above observation. Conservative commentators were noting Trump's demagogic tendencies early on, during the campaign. Conservative George Will has been scathing in his criticism of this president.

What is bound to happen, I believe, is this. A percentage of Trump followers has bought into his conspiracy theories, his alternative reality, designed in part to demonize the Mueller probe, demonize the so-called Deep State, lock, stock, and barrel. I do not know what % of Trump voters they represent(after all, about 90% of Republicans support Trump, and they are not all denizens of our modern conspiracy culture), but from my perspective, that percentage is a cult of personality.

Now, if Trump is still in office in 2020, and loses to a Democrat, that subset of Trump supporters will unquestionably vilify his successor. Heck, he will likely be on the sidelines screaming "rigged election", "it's the Deep State", etc. That subset of Trump supporters will be unsparing. I put Dutchjazzer in that category, since you used his most recent thread to support your position, although Dutch is not a citizen. Then again, conspiracy culture and attraction to candidates that appeal only to hate, anger, fear, and anxiety is not uniquely American either.

So, there is bound to be some who will vilify a Democratic president. But, unless that president is a carbon copy of Trump, speaking only to our basest instincts, it cannot possibly be to the degree of vilification/disgust that we see directed toward this abberation of a president.

I think we might also keep in mind, that if Trump loses in 2020, the GOP is going to be dealing with intense self-examination, since they hitched their wagon to this train wreck. We may also see a severe right wing third Trumpian party develop. If Trump loses in 2020, he needs to lose hugely, and the elements within our society that have felt emboldened by his words and actions, driven very much to the sidelines.

 

[Stoked]

OK, I'll assume you have it right. I have not examined how it played out to a sufficient degree.

Me either to be honest. Both are plausible scenarios

As for the general discussion. I guess we will see. But I have very little hope that DC will suddenly return to respectable behavior. Trump of which is by far the most glaring example. Is this really the best we can do? Smh

 

[Zombie]

Stoked bringing that both sides are equally to blame **** as usual lol.

Yeah both sides play politics, but there's a world of difference between confirmation hearing theatrics and whatever the conspiracy dejour is on the right wing at any given point.

 

[Stoked]

Stoked bringing that both sides are equally to blame **** as usual lol.

Yeah both sides play politics, but there's a world of difference between confirmation hearing theatrics and whatever the conspiracy dejour is on the right wing at any given point.

The confirmation theatrics are one example of many. But fell free to act like ones really to blame and the others looking out for you.

I’ll just sit here and laugh openly at this. “Equal blame”. Lmfao. Keep missing the point entirely.

 

[Zombie]

The confirmation theatrics are one example of many. But fell free to act like ones really to blame and the others looking out for you.

I’ll just sit here and laugh openly at this. “Equal blame”. Lmfao. Keep missing the point entirely.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. I don't think politicians on either side are perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but the state of the GOP right now is on a level I've never seen in my lifetime. It's a ****ing cancer on this country.

Anyway, I've been around here long enough to be familiar with your 'gee golly, I'm just an independant who points out how bad Democrats are in every thread critical of Republicans, because I'm just above it all' shtick. It's just not a very useful way to view American politics in a landscape where one side is enslaved in cultish devotion to a racist gibbering moron.

 

[Red]

The confirmation theatrics are one example of many. But fell free to act like ones really to blame and the others looking out for you.

I’ll just sit here and laugh openly at this. “Equal blame”. Lmfao. Keep missing the point entirely.

I think I must be missing the point as well. Are you saying someone who feels as I do, and I've never hidden the fact that I loath Trump, should not support the Democrats opposition to Trump? Or, perhaps more accurately, are you saying that I am somehow naive for doing so? If they are opposing Trump, supporting the Mueller probe, how are they not looking out for me, for my interests? And I understand candidates and elected officials of both parties get lots of corporate money, and campaign finance reform is much needed. And I don't like it, or what it's done to our body politic.

Understand, if someone more palatable were president, but promoted the policies Trump is promoting, I would still have no choice but to support the Democrats. In the case of Trump, my biggest concern is his climate change denial policies. This would not be the case if Clinton had been elected. I don't want to veer too far from the subject, so I will just post this as one example. Trump just appointed this guy to the National Security Council:

https://www.ecowatch.com/trump-climate-denier-happer-2602295674.html

Reaction to that will be dependent on how one feels about global warming. I understand that. But we only have two viable political parties. I realize politics has been called the art of compromise, and if so, our body politic is broken. But I cannot, at this time in our nation's history, regard both these parties as equal in the harm they inflict. I believe both Democratic senators from my state, and I am a big fan of Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, particularly his position on climate science, are acting in my interest.

Just because people play politics, play to the camera, promote their personal political ambitions(hello Corey Booker), etc. does not mean I cannot support any and every effort to support the Democrats in the face of the Trump presidency. Republicans are the silence of the lambs in the face of Trump.

I don't have a viable third party to turn to at this moment. I feel like I am putting my country first. (I could be kidding myself I guess). If we have two political parties, one will act as the opposition when they are in the minority. That's the way things work. In that respect, they are equal. But that does not mean there is not a right side and a wrong side in any particular era, where the two parties are concerned. In this era, Republicans are not acting in the best interest of my country. Democrats are not perfect, they just happen to be right in opposing Trump.

 

[Harambe]

The confirmation theatrics are one example of many. But fell free to act like ones really to blame and the others looking out for you.

I’ll just sit here and laugh openly at this. “Equal blame”. Lmfao. Keep missing the point entirely.

Your story arc is pretty interesting. It entertains me how much more central you've become. And I respect that. You seem to be living a dichotomy "don't forget where you come from, don't die holding on to your words". And really man, that's great. From my perspective, you're in that swing from right to left while landing closer to central. No doubt, should the left put up someone as divisive, dishonest, insecure, and unstable as donnie, you'll swing harder right(Hillary gets 3/4, but 1 of those three is merely because she's not a man.. that we know of). And to be fair, if the left had that, I'd probably swing a lot closer to central, too.

Right now, I don't think we can say there's equal blame. Yeah, the ****** tactics the Democrats are using aren't incredibly helpful, and some of them downright hard to watch. But some of them are... we've discovered Kavanaugh doesn't walk the walk he describes. If he did, instead of asking "who signed this" after reading an illegally obtained document, he would have reported it immediately. He had a chance to redeem himself during his confirmation hearing in ... 05? 06? But he didn't, and he just kept on keeping on. This man does not have the character to sit on the bench for that reason alone; his position on abortion, equal rights, racism, separation of powers, presidential immunity, etc. don't even need to come into play. If after seeing what he DOES, instead of what he SAYS, doesn't make you want to impeach him from his current position, then you're part of the problem.

Yet, all Republicans are gung ho for him. Seemingly all of them. And largely, in practice, they're all for letting donnie run wild. If they were truly a responsible group looking out for the vast majority of people in their districts, they'd be pushing back a lot more than they are. And maybe behind the scenes, they are but I don't see it. That tactic is hurting them more than helping.